Bioethics Discussion Blog: Patient Dignity (Formerly: Patient Modesty): Volume 92

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Thursday, October 11, 2018

Patient Dignity (Formerly: Patient Modesty): Volume 92






"Modesty is Not About Hiding Your Body. It's About Revealing Your Dignity"

What I wrote in Volume 91 detailing  this expression:


In other words "hiding your body" is a component of "dignity", a concept that is worthy of reminding those in the medical profession who simply consider physical modesty as a matter of personal "shame" for which the goal of correct diagnosis and treatment should trump. How's that??  


And now..let the discussion continue with the goal of how we all, patients as well as members of the medical profession (who one day will be patients) rehabilitate and change the medical system to be the supporters of patient dignity in all of its various contents and expressions.    ..Maurice.




Graphic: From Google Images and Pinterest.com https://www.pinterest.com/

73 Comments:

At Thursday, October 11, 2018 7:09:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maurice


You said “ hiding your body is a component of dignity, a concept that is worthy of reminding those in the medical profession who simply consider physical modesty as a matter of personal shame for which the goal of correct diagnosis should trump.”

Really! Let’s see, there are about 4.5 million nurses in this country of which about 4.1 million are female. I doubt they share your view since they have ensured they don’t fall into this category, ie mammo, L&D, high influx of women into gyn services. Additionally, take into account the numbers of female physicians of which they too seek the same personal care as nursing does, mammo, outpatient women’s services and finally I know for a fact many male physicians are selective as to whom they seek their medical services.

Therefore “ those in the medical profession” opinions have you vastly outnumbered. They have almost guaranteed that while seeking medical care that they never have to worry about being “shamed”. Let’s delve into this concept of being “shamed”. Why do people feel this way, is it that in reflection they are being judged? But, we are told the medical industry dosen’t judge patients in this regard from a sexual standpoint. If not then why are there so many Dr Nasser’s, Dr . Sparks, nurses like the Denver 5, etc.

If you notice, public sentiment and opinion are what changes industries and the medical industry is no exception. The manner in which care is distributed as well as men in nursing will eventually reach an equilibrium. There are many many dinosaurs in our healthcare system and ever so slowly they will eventually become extinct and no one will ever remember their name. Why then should the ill be shamed, is it a prerequisite? I know most of this “shaming” is unnecessary and unwarranted and does it make for a better patient, mind and soul. Is it all worth the big black eye on the medical industry.

PT

 
At Thursday, October 11, 2018 9:09:00 PM, Blogger Maurice Bernstein, M.D. said...

Posting #1



One of the last posts in Volume 11 was an excellent presentation of the history of nudity and bodily modesty issues as written by our visitor MER. I thought it would be appropriate to start out this Volume by re-posting his writing here. ..Maurice.


Saturday, March 21, 2009 2:05:00 PM, MER said...
One point I’ve tried to consistently make in my past posts is – how we feel about nakedness is contextual, depends upon the situation. The same person who may frequent nudist events may be embarrassed or even humiliated being naked in other contexts. The same is true for those who are extremely embarrassed being naked in front of a female nurse or doctor. In other contexts, in front of a male doctor or nurse, they may not be embarrassed.

I’ve been trying to study the change in attitudes toward nakedness in Western culture, especially the US, within the last 100 years or so. This is a complex subject and I don’t pretend to have “the” answer. But I do have a few suggestions. In the late 19th century, early 20th century, interest in Greek culture with the start of the Olympics, reminded us that these Greek athletes competed in the nude, and often trained in the nude. The Greek perfection of the unity of mind and body became visible in statues of the “perfect” athletic body. I think the early Olympics had some influence on attitude changes. This about the time we begin to see the growth of modern nudism and males swimming nude in public swimming pools.

About the 1890’s, when Boy’s Clubs, YMCA’s, (the scout movement, etc.) became popular, attitudes toward masculinity changed. The notion was that we were becoming weak as a culture, especially males, with the closing of the frontier. These male bonding institutions in connection with exercise and wilderness experiences helped shape our attitudes toward nudity. In UK, as the empire was declining, a similar attitude developed about the decline of masculinity and the traits associated with it. Early indoor swimming pools started being built. They had filtering systems that were sensitive. For that reason among others, males were required to swim naked. It started in the YMCA’s and Boy’s Clubs and later came into some of the college and high school systems. But, and this is a big BUT – it seems to me that there was always an understood, tacit agreement – no females were allowed. This would be strictly for men and men felt safe in these situations.

I don’t think naked military induction exams really became standard until WW1. That’s not to say it didn’t occur during the Crimean War, the American Civil War or the Franco-Prussian War. We’d have to research that. But before “modern” warfare, governments were more interested in bodies in any condition to man the front lines. Doctor’s examining naked bodies didn’t really begin seriously until after the French Revolution secularized the hospital system and doctors from all around the world headed to Paris to study and get access to real bodies. Read George Eliot’s “Middlemarch” to see how one of the main characters, a British doctor, brings back modern medicine to England from his Paris studies. There’s a revealing chapter in Tolstoy’s “Anna Karenina” where Kitty is ill and must go through a complete examination with one of the “new” thinking doctors who insists that he examine her entire naked body. Very revealing. It shows the arrogance of that doctor, how the modesty of the patient is completely ignored. If ever there’s a literary example of Foucault’s medical “gaze” it’s there in Tolstoy. Kitty was simply an object for this doctor to examine. My point in all this is that the modern medical examination of the complete naked body doesn’t start until the mid to late 19th century.

To be continued on Posting #2

 
At Thursday, October 11, 2018 9:11:00 PM, Blogger Maurice Bernstein, M.D. said...

Posting #2

We occasionally see photos of naked soldiers from WW1 and WW2 being examined. This was standard. But I would argue that there was a strict, assumed, tacit agreement that there would be no women present. The question is often asked as to why these men felt comfortable swimming nude together, or being examined naked during military inductions. I would argue it was because of this understanding that this was a male ritual that excluded women.

Now – something begins to change after WW2 and comes into being in the 1960’s. It has many sources, but I argue that it’s closely connected to what we call the “sexual revolution” and the growing feminist movement. As more women enter male occupations, as this process gets embedded in legal doctrine, that is, giving rights to the same access for women as for men – we see things change. As more women want access to these indoor pools the policy about men swimming naked changes. As gay rights becomes an issue and as more gays come out of the closet, some men show more homophobic tendencies and become less comfortable being naked around other men. As sexual abuse, predation and crimes become more publicized, people become more wary with exposing their bodies in more and more situations.

How does this relate to what we’re talking about? Before we get to medicine – we see one example with the military induction during the Vietnam War. With more women becoming doctors and joining the military, we find many anecdotal examples of naked male inductees facing female doctors and nurses. In fact, there are a significant number of anecdotes of female clerks and other non medical personal having access to these naked men. Here’s where we see the old understood, tacit, agreement breaking down. In the past, it was understood that there would be no females present for these nude male rituals. Things now change. I would argue that during WW1 and WW2, as a general rule males in the military (unless seriously wounded – again, I’m not referring to extreme examples) were not subject to intimate examinations by female doctors or nurses. I grant the exception of the USSR and some other European countries. But remember, medicine wasn’t opened to women in the early USSR because the Soviets were concerned with gender equity. I suggested more women became doctors than men because being a doctor didn’t have the social status it did in other countries. It wasn’t considered the highest, most honorable calling for men.

Combine all this with the dominance of post modern philosophy – the concept of gender doesn’t exist, it’s only a cultural construct – and we see this attitude enter the medical system. Exempting emergency situations, it wasn’t that long ago that male orderlies or nurses or doctors handled intimate procedures with male patients. Even the “older” retired nurses today will tell you that. As more women entered medicine, it was just expected that gender didn’t matter and that they would have access to males just as the male doctors over the years had had access to females. Although attitudes are changing, this world view is still significantly embedded with the medical culture. These attitudes changes that now claim gender neutrality have come relatively quickly and without an open, honest discussion which includes patients at the table.

I don’t claim this is the whole story. I’ve probably missed some important elements and movements. I present this summary, my opinion, for discussion and criticism. I believe it’s relevant to what we’re discussing here.

 
At Friday, October 12, 2018 3:04:00 AM, Blogger NTT said...

Good Morning:

Mer was correct about one thing.

without an open, honest discussion which includes patients at the table men will continue to be denied their right to equal healthcare.

The issue has to get into the public domain or the healthcare industry and the federal government will just ignore it.

Men that are needlessly dying because they chose their dignity over being some nurses lewd entertainment will just be spun as another man not taking care of himself.

Men have to get past the fear that they might be seen as being a weakling.

It's time to show the skirts we're human beings not animals or objects for their entertainment.

We're men. We have medical needs the American healthcare system WILL address even if that means hiring back the male orderlies they dumped back in the 60's and early 70's in favor of these so-called female nurses and female ancillary staff.

The needs of BOTH genders outweigh the needs of either one gender and it time the US government and the United States healthcare industry stepped up and fulfilled their ethical obligations to the people they serve.

Guys, put your fears aside & lets ride the tide to change things for the better.

Have a great day all.

Regards,
NTT

 
At Friday, October 12, 2018 4:23:00 AM, Blogger Biker in Vermont said...

MER's comments are very well stated. Interestingly while the female dominance of healthcare trend continues to grow, at the same time most young men now grow up not being exposed in even same-gender scenarios let alone opposite gender. The days of mandatory swimming in the buff that some of us experienced are long over but now boys are not mandated to take showers after gym in middle & high school anymore.

Growing up as I did I'm not shy around other men. Today's young men are. I see it at the fitness club I go to. Most of the young guys don't shower there after exercising. Many don't even change there. Those that do go to great lengths to make sure nobody sees them whereas the older guys change and shower w/o caring who sees them. These young guys are going to be in for a tremendous shock when they enter the healthcare system and find it is almost exclusively female-staffed when it comes to any kind of intimate exposure.

As the doctor shortage grows, even finding a male doctor may prove difficult for many. It is mostly female NP's and PA's filling the void for primary care and they are starting to find their way into specialties too, including urology and dermatology.

 
At Friday, October 12, 2018 9:12:00 AM, Blogger A. Banterings said...

Maurice,et al,

I very humbly thank ALL of you for the discourse since I stopped lurking and started posting back in Volume 70-something. The latest change to the title of the thread was something I initiated back in Volume 80-something. Maurice gave heed to the evidence that I presented to support my assertion in Volume 91, "What are we talking about?" The discourse continued and I continued to defend my assertion with scientific support.

All those who have posted and even those who just read Volume 91 contributed to the debate. Even those who remained silent, expressed their views, BY their silence (such that they either so strongly agreed or disagreed as to cause them to speak up).

In the end, logic, scientific reasoning, ethical debate, and the academic quest for knowledge, and the divine virtue to seek perfection as a reflection of our Creator as we are made "in His image," has prevailed.

Again, I HUMBLY thank EVERYONE for allowing me to bring up this topic up for debate, and taking the time to examine and discuss it.

I HUMBLY thank you Maurice for your integrity to accept this change that on the surface is significant (despite the thread subject matter remaining the same). I also say this in all honesty, YOU have lived up to the expectations of all those who post here imagine you to be as a physician, AND what we wish ALL physicians and providers WOULD be.

After our conversation of why you never experienced the pushback from your patients that have been talked about here, for the reasons that you presented fall in line with you being the physician we wish ALL physicians WOULD be. That physician, who you are, also would have the courage and integrity to change the title when presented with the evidence that supported my assertion that it needed to be changed.

This forum is also a microcosm of medicine. Change here gives us hope for the profession.

Even though I believe that the entire profession should be torn down and rebuilt by (and for the benefit of the patients), I still hold hope that what we have now will miraculously change.



-- Banterings




 
At Friday, October 12, 2018 10:57:00 AM, Blogger Maurice Bernstein, M.D. said...

Hey, you all should go to the 2009 Volume 12, from where I copied MER's presentation and read all the most interesting responses from a host of visitors perhaps you will not know except PT. Read also Suzy's postings there and comments of them by others. Has expressions of the dignity-modesty issues changed in these 9 years?

While I appreciate all the contributors to our more recent Volumes, I am looking forward for new participants, including those from outside the United States on the important issues within the entire medical system. ..Maurice.

 
At Friday, October 12, 2018 12:29:00 PM, Blogger Maurice Bernstein, M.D. said...

Hey Banterings, thank you for your kind words.

You all know that "miracles" (unexpected but "hoped for" beneficence) can happen in medicine. But many, when later re-considered, are found to have a patho-therapeutic explanation. This means that "miraculous change" may be related to the medical process and not simply to "miracles". This should give us hope that dealing with the disasters of medical behavior which affects patient dignity in many ways described here have the potential to be prevented through the directed reactions of the patients themselves. Contributing to the discussions here may provide needed stimulus and direction for attempts at such system directed actions. ..Maurice.

 
At Friday, October 12, 2018 12:57:00 PM, Blogger A. Banterings said...

Even in the UK, men are discriminated against in healthcare:

Anger at hospital's ban on men in breast screening clinic waiting area


- Banterings


 
At Friday, October 12, 2018 7:53:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

A. Banterings


Let me say those male patients in the UK were visiting with female patients, but here in the US male patients awaiting a mammogram are treated the same! They are NOT allowed to wait in the same waiting room with other female patients. This is how ridiculous this entire issue truly is and the absurd level of discrimination it is at.

I have a lot of respect for MER and I agree with his assertions in the cultural regards that Maurice posted, however, in no way should it be looked at as an excuse in the way male patients are treated. I try to stay out of the politics that involves Brett Kavanaugh and his nomination to the Supreme Court but it just astounds me that the National Nurses Union ( NNU) wrote extensive letters to congress along with extensive petitions of nurses nationwide asking that his approval to be blocked.

One would think the NNU would have enough problems on their plate regarding the nursing industry with staffing ratios, licensing, image and ethical issues but rather they use their platform to pursue political ambitions in an arena outside of the medical nursing industry. THIS IS JUST ONE OF MANY REASONS WHY I HATE NURSES AND THE NURSING INDUSTRY WITH A PASSION TO THE EXTENT THAT NONE OF YOU CAN TRULY APPRECIATE.

PT

 
At Saturday, October 13, 2018 4:10:00 AM, Blogger Biker in Vermont said...

Dr. Bernstein, I looked at Volume 12. There were more women participating back then and that was an excellent discussion about the pelvic exams in exchange for birth control. I hope that isn't still as mandatory as it was then.

The discussion was as well a bit more focused on patients simply being modest and/or uncomfortable with opposite gender intimate care without going into staff misbehavior or unprofessional behavior as being the source of that modesty and discomfort. Some of us are now more clear on how we came to start speaking up after having had inappropriate experiences.

Otherwise, the problem is the same, or perhaps worse as female NP's and PA's flood the market and women slowly achieve parity at the physician level. It is becoming harder for men to even get a male physician. Meanwhile political correctness has reached absurd levels where we celebrate female-only caregivers for women and call men sexist if they want male caregivers.

 
At Saturday, October 13, 2018 9:31:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

A female nurse in Montana was arrested for having child pornography on her computer. She was sentenced to 6 years in prison and once released had to be registered as a sex offender. The hospital where she previously worked hired her back despite protests by families refusing to bring their children to the hospital if they employed her.

This article was published in Becker’s hospital review. Now I will say that no male nurse, cna, Lpn is going to get a job anywhere in healthcare if they are a convicted sex offender, no way in hell. They don’t even prefer to hire men in pediatric units as it is let alone some poor guy who can’t even get a job with a perfect record and he tried for 10 years until being told your best chance is to join the navy and get a job as a medic. That’s right, on a submarine a thousand feet below the surface.

The CEO at the hospital stood by her position to rehire this female convicted sex offender, despite protests. This female nurse has many good job prospects, she can do no wrong because she is a female. I’ll bet the Denver Hospital will hire her no problem. Yet a male patient that needs a mammogram has to be ushered through a side door, get his exam and then sent away here in this country. If you are in the UK you are not allowed to sit in the waiting room as a companion because as the article mentioned, some women waiting for their exam could feel a loss of DIGNITY even though they are fully clothed.

A Urology clinic I went to once had the clinic divided up into two sides, one side said in big letters on the wall “ The prostate Center “ with a picture of a prostate in the middle. Of course it’s only females that work at that center and one could only imagine if they had a breast center that said in big letters on the wall “ the breast center “ with pictures of breasts in the middle. One can only imagine the protests this would bring about.

PT

 
At Saturday, October 13, 2018 3:22:00 PM, Blogger NTT said...

Good Afternoon:

With the current political environment, women may get a taste how we feel should something happen with reproductive rights.

They're yelling up a storm. Something the guys should have been doing since they replaced the male orderlies with skirts.

Regards,
NTT

 
At Saturday, October 13, 2018 10:19:00 PM, Anonymous JF said...

There is a gynecologist office someplace that looks like a woman in stirrups. You could probably Google the picture up.

 
At Saturday, October 13, 2018 11:32:00 PM, Anonymous JF said...

Not me NTT. I voted for Hillary but really I was just voting AGAINST TRUMP! I HATE abortion! I'd take a baby in and raise it now if it came up, and I'm in my 50's.

 
At Sunday, October 14, 2018 8:30:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

ABCnews.go.com/Health/North-Carolina-man-denied

This male patient was denied a mammogram through a program through the center for disease control and prevention despite his father had breast cancer and now he has symptoms. Only women are allowed to have mammograms approved.

1) men are not allowed to work in mammography
2) men are not allowed to accompany their partners in the waiting rooms for mammography
3)As a male you will not qualify for health programs that allow you to get a mammogram
4) if you can get a mammogram you will be ushered through a side door and not be allowed to wait in the lobby.

Is this how an industry that rakes in $4 Trillion dollars annually treats their patients, like lepers.

PT

 
At Sunday, October 14, 2018 9:59:00 AM, Blogger Maurice Bernstein, M.D. said...

PT can you provide a link to that mammography article that works? I can't get the file with your posted address. Thanks. By the way, mammograms in male patients are more accurate than in females in view of the comparative more limited amount of breast tissues. ..Maurice.

 
At Sunday, October 14, 2018 10:16:00 AM, Blogger NTT said...

Good Afternoon:

Here's the link Dr. Bernstein.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/north-carolina-man-denied-free-screening-suspected-male/story?id=10313188

Regards,
NTT

 
At Sunday, October 14, 2018 10:18:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maurice

Here is one link. The patient, David Mudd of Florida was refused amammogram from 6 different organizations because he is male.

www.Dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2451436man

Then this male patient, Mr Cunningham from North Carolina was refused a mammogram as well.

www.abcnews.go.com/North-Carolina-man-denied-a-mammogram

Would you like a full listing of all men who are refused a mammogram? I’ve got truckloads

PT

 
At Sunday, October 14, 2018 10:25:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maurice

With advanced equipment like the new breast tomosynthesis utilizing 3D imaging this new technology takes mammography to a whole new level wether the patient has limited tissue or not. Nonetheless, if you are a male patient, forget it. You won’t be approved.

PT

 
At Sunday, October 14, 2018 1:25:00 PM, Blogger Maurice Bernstein, M.D. said...

Confirming a suspicion of breast cancer in a male patient by non-surgical technique should never be prevented because of gender since breast cancer in a male is not a theoretical occurrence but one that occurs. I had one male breast cancer patient in my entire medical career who was worked up properly and treated appropriately. Nobody in medicine is asking for screening of males like is done for females. But when suspicious symptoms (nipple bleeding) or suspicious physical findings are present, any rejection of attention to working up (including equal gender opportunity for diagnosis) is a discredit to any concept of ethical or legal justice or dignity of one's gender. The medical system will never go bankrupt by diagnosing suspicious breast physical findings or symptoms in the male patient. What political, economic or legal craziness is responsible for these stories of diagnostic neglect?

By the way, for what purpose are we teaching medical students to also palpate male breasts if there is a medical system concept to reject equal gender workup for appropriate clinical findings? ..Maurice.

 
At Sunday, October 14, 2018 5:24:00 PM, Blogger A. Banterings said...

Here is how REAL MEN deal with the disparity in healthcare: WE AVOID HEALTHCARE if we can NOT find care that WE find DIGNIFIED and ACCEPTABLE to us. We will DIE with DIGNITY. That is OUR CHOICE.

I myself, have avoided ANY kind of CA screening ALL my life. I had an incredible doctor growing up who realized that him watching over me, giving me immunizations, and signing school forms was much better THAN me having NO care what so ever.

If we are wronged and cannot get justice through our legal system, REAL MEN will exact the justice that they deserve.

Before anybody gives me that PC BS of being around for families, pressuring us with the upcoming Movember BS to accept substandard or abusive healthcare, my family came to this country and worked in the Pennsylvania coal mines. My grandfather died in his 50's from black lung.

My wife's father was crushed in a coal mine cave in and thought dead. He described the doctor's diagnosis as "breaking every bone in his body." He spent months on the couch, in excruciating pain, his bones not healing correctly only to return to the mines to take care and support his family.

These are real men.

As previously mentioned, Boy Scouts, YMCA, etc. was a response to world communism because boys were not masculine enough. Now, society is creating "girly men". Under our President, there is a revival of real men (the rejection of feminism), and the women who support men being men.

There is also a wholesale rejection of the whole Medical-Industrial Complex. This is evident in the anti vax movement.

So, when we are gone, who is going to get that spider out of the shower?

Who is going to run into the next building and carry people out when the next terrorist plane hits?




-- Banterings






 
At Sunday, October 14, 2018 7:26:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

A. Banterings

Amen to that brother, if there is ever another titanic you can be sure the lifeboats will be more diversied and furthermore I go way out of my way NOT to hold doors open for women. I always find it amusing when I’m walking into an establishment through the right door some female, rather then go out her right door will cross over to try to go through my door, blocking my entrance. They’ye Expecting you to hold the door open which I do not do but rather, immediately switch over to the other door. They can open their own damn door!

PT

 
At Sunday, October 14, 2018 7:38:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maurice

You said “ What political, economic or legal craziness is responsible for these stories of diagnostic neglect? “


Now as you know Maurice in my posts I use a lot of sarcasm and ridicule. I’m not doing that right now with you but honestly, where have you been? There are hundreds of documented cases of men being refused a mammogram. I’m not talking about cases of screening but rather a medical reason, ie lump, pain and tenderness. I have said a number of times before that I know of one mammo clinic specifically that female patients are given a pink robe to wait for their mammo and it is for this reason that they don’t want male patients there. Male patients were turned away despite the fact that they had an order from their physician.

I have but one thing to say about all this.............WTF!

PT

 
At Sunday, October 14, 2018 8:22:00 PM, Anonymous JF said...

PT, Maybe you should get on psyc meds. Before you become a serial killer, killing nursing hags.

 
At Sunday, October 14, 2018 9:30:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

JF

Nope,no reason to. If the cigarettes don’t get them first, obesity, diabetes and heart disease will.

PT

 
At Sunday, October 14, 2018 9:37:00 PM, Blogger Maurice Bernstein, M.D. said...

First, let's keep this blog thread free of ad hominem remarks. We want to read the opinions of all, consider and then accept or not but lets keep the responses pertinent to the issue and not to the character of the participants.

I think the issues of failure of patient dignity maintenance and acceptance by the medical system of patient dignity has been well documented here. What is only rarely noted and what should be the main discussion here for the future comments is practical approaches to at least some beginning solution and what our readers and participants will do to change the behavior of the medical system. I have written this before but "moaning and groaning" should not have to continue here but what should be written is practical approaches to create change. Can't there be some patient group action which has the potential to gain momentum and pressure the system to make the changes in all the dignity issues for all males and females and all the genders "in between"? There must be some ideas which can be presented here and hopefully initiated into action here. SO LET'S GET "AT IT"! ..Maurice.

 
At Sunday, October 14, 2018 10:26:00 PM, Anonymous JF said...

TV commercials showing the offensive ways of doing examinations and proceedures. Vs. The hospitals/ clinics where exams and proceedures are done in an acceptable way ( to us ) Maybe a series of commercials that covers what has been brought out on this blog. Advertising the clinics and hospitals that do it the right way.

 
At Monday, October 15, 2018 3:15:00 AM, Blogger NTT said...

Good Morning Everyone:

Dr. Bernstein you ask what group action can be taken.

The only action available to us is our voice and our vote.

Women are not going to stand with us as from speaking with many of them, they are afraid if we are given dignity and privacy they will have to lose some benefit in return.

Most women don't know and don't care about the indignities men have to suffer as long as they don't lose what they have.

If this injustice is going to be corrected, men everywhere will have to stop wining and start talking and pushing back.

Otherwise them, their sons, and their grandsons will continue to be assaulted by a system that doesn't give a rats a** about male dignity & privacy.

I've talked with elected officials and even tried using letters to the editor in the local papers. They won't publish the letters because they don't want to ruffle the feathers of the local hospital officials.

We have to keep talking and pushing back until someone give us a chance to get this into the court of public opinion.

Have a great day & week all.

Regards,
NTT

 
At Monday, October 15, 2018 4:50:00 AM, Blogger Biker in Vermont said...

Here is a positive step forward for patient modesty. https://www.postbulletin.com/news/business/doctor-creates-garment-for-patients-dignity/article_4188dc6c-b1e2-11e8-bdec-732782b994e8.html

I don't know if it is the same as what was described in this article but my wife had foot surgery a couple weeks ago and was given a pair of disposable underwear to wear during the surgery.

Kudos to this doc and his wife for caring about his patients.

 
At Monday, October 15, 2018 7:22:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

A short article “The Case for Medical Chaperones” was just published. Have a look:

https://www.aafp.org/fpm/2018/0900/p6.html

I applaud this young physician for encouraging a discussion. However the use of chaperones is more problematic than physicians realize.

At my old institution we never had any training program for “chaperones”. I doubt many, if any medical centers, have well defined chaperone training programs that teach appropriate behavior, appropriate exams, gender issues, how to report inappropriate activity (and the time frame for reporting), documenting chaperone attendance/observation, etc. This is problematic, one a plaintiffs lawyer would easily seize on. “How do you know what an appropriate exam is, what is your training for conducting this exam?” “Do you stay in the room the entire time or are you asked to leave for various reasons?” “Who do you report suspicions too, what is the policy for reporting and to whom do you report?” “Do you document your observation or does the provider do that?” etc.

Certainly small practices will not be able to or bother with providing chaperone training and having staff of both genders trained and available at all times for patients of both genders.

Additionally we all know many assaults go unreported. A “chaperone”, fearing for their job, will be less likely to report what may have been an inappropriate exam. They may rationalize they just don’t understand the medicine, which of course is likely the case anyway because of lack of training. But if patents are unlikely to report, chaperones who fear for their job will be even less likely to report.

All in all just throwing another untrained incorrect gender person in the room does little to protect the patient and has less value to the physician/NP/PA than they may realize. It may protect the provider from inappropriate behavior BY they patient, but is of limited value for the opposite as currently haphazardly implemented. The US medical system needs to think much harder about this problem. — AB in NW

 
At Monday, October 15, 2018 11:06:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hello,

Biker, thanks for the article re the Covr medical garment. I discovered this garment about a year ago and posted their site on this blog. No one seemed to care at the time. The article that you referenced is a bit flawed. It states that the hip patient had the doctor buy the garment for him. Actually, I showed the doctor Covr's website and the doctor found no problem with it. I then contacted the sales manager, Aaron Miller, attempting to buy the garment (at the time they were only considering hospital sales). Mr. Miller mentioned that, due to my prompting, there were embarking on a sales strategy for individual clients and, he sent me the garment gratis. I wore the prototype from pre-op through post-op with no problems. Before the operation I communicated with the ortho nursing staff and had the doctor sign a "Conditions for Treatment" note stating that the garment was not to be removed. The ortho nursing manager was also able to fulfill my request for an all-male surgical team. The greatest obstacle was anesthesia. Although the doctor indicated that he performed the operation with a spinal and no catheter, apparently, the head of anesthesia over-ruled him. I was offered, by the "head", either spinal with cath or general w/o cath. I chose the general w/o cath. After jumping through all the required hoops (walking, urinating and climbing stairs) I was able to leave the hospital the same day. The doctor agreed to the same day discharge during our pre-op visit. I really don't think he expected me to be able to do it, since the one-day procedure is usually reserved for patients 65 and younger. I'm 74 but, in great shape. The only potential problem throughout the procedure came at the beginning when the intake nurse gave me the gown and told me to take everything off. My son indicated that I'd be wearing the Garment that the doctor had OKed. She shrugged and left. With all my e-mails and communications with the doctor and ortho nursing staff, there was still a bit of a lack of communication. This is another reason to have an advocate with you to reaffirm your case. Incidentally, the operation took 3 hours, instead of the anticipated 90 minutes. I had quite a bit of arthritis in the hip. Certainly, a genital covering could be used in most surgeries with no compromise to the procedure. Getting the doctor and nursing staff on board is the key. Unfortunately, I had to divulge to them my situation of prior sexual abuse as a minor. This was private info that I had only divulged to my wife. I'm still saddened that I divulged this but, I wasn't sure that the modesty/ dignity approach would be successful by itself. This was the first time that this garment was being used; and, I wasn't sure how well a novel approach would be accepted by hospital personnel. Possibly, I was the topic of discussions, protocol meetings or jokes. I don't know. Throughout the entire process I was not hostile nor belligerent. I tried to politely "nail everything down" before the operation day. Nevertheless, my son and I were ready to pull the iv and walk (hobble) in the event of a last minute refusal. I sincerely encourage everyone to TALK FRANKLY to your doctor and/ or hospital personnel re your modesty/ dignity concerns. Although there are "bad apples", I don't view them as voyeuristic monsters. This was St. Joseph Hospital in Orange, CA. There were very compassionate and I would recommend them to anyone for any procedure.
Reginald

 
At Monday, October 15, 2018 2:26:00 PM, Blogger Maurice Bernstein, M.D. said...

Reginald, thanks for your personal "speaking up" story.

What is needed now is a "speaking up" to the nation and to those who can facilitate change in the medical system.

Isn't it possible for those participating on this dignity thread to provide a list of all the other websites on the internet which are discussing the same issues we are here? Of course, I am aware of Misty's site but I bet many of our writers and others here know of more and perhaps the first things we can do is see if we can develop a consortium of these sites, working together, to more effectively promote change of the system beyond "speaking up" one to one to the healthcare provider. How about first developing this "working together" consortium? I bet most of our participants here do know much more than me what is going on internet-wise on this subject. Here in Southern California, we have a consortium of the ethics committees from the many local hospitals which I think is an important way to "spread the word" and "do things". How about an internet consortium of websites with the aim of making the medical system fair to the personal dignity of every patient? Anyone want to first start that listing here? I just think 13 years of "moaning and groaning" on this thread really doesn't do much except spread the word that there are other potential patients with the same experience and fears. ..Maurice.

 
At Tuesday, October 16, 2018 8:44:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hello,

Perhaps it’s time to found the Association (or Organization) For Dignified Patient Care whose major goals are concordant-gender care and patient genital privacy. Proximate goals would be placing male nurse assistants in urology offices and promoting the use of Covr-type and/ or Digni medical garments. These proximate goals would be accomplished by (1) contacting urological offices in, or around, major cities to inquire of their need for nurse assistants and providing names of available male nurses; and, (2) by placing ads (possibly on buses, subways, TV or benches) encouraging people to request that their doctors and/ or hospitals provide dignity garments for them (the patients). The ultimate goal would be to have society thoroughly embrace the concept of concordant-gender care and genital privacy for all patients. Funding could come from membership dues and/ or government grants. My limited internet search found no comparable organization. What say all of you?

Reginald

 
At Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:31:00 AM, Blogger A. Banterings said...

Reginald,

The problem is that we need to deal with the issue of ANY exposure. Physicians are taught that they MUST do COMPLETE exams. Yet after the science is examined, we find that the intimate exams for cancer are unnecessary. Only after years of practice and/or lawsuits they realize that being thorough does not equate to good health.

Physicians should be taught (while the patient is fully dressed) this is what I propose, this is why then the patient can accept, reject, or modify the proposal. The physician must then accept the patient's answer and NOT penalize the patient.

Look at the digital rectal exam (DRE) in trauma. For years the mantra was "a finger or tube in every orifice" or "reasons to omit digital rectal exam in trauma patients: no fingers, no rectum". Now it is "reasons to omit digital rectal exam in trauma patients: no fingers, no rectum, no useful additional information".

The problem with the conservation here (especially recently) has been gender concurrent care. What is missing is the necessity of the exam/treatment, the patient acceptance/rejection/modification, earning patient trust (as opposed to paternalism). Gender concurrent care, covering garments, etc. can be used either as options in proposed treatment or in negotiating after rejection/modification.

The proposed exam/treatment should ALWAYS be guided by the virtue of the patient's human dignity.

In too many of these conversations I hear patient defeat and blindly accepting the procedure is necessary. They then panhandle for crumbs.

Here is the solution, request modifications then sure for PTSD as a side effect of treatment which could have been avoided.



-- Banterings




 
At Tuesday, October 16, 2018 3:16:00 PM, Blogger NTT said...

Good Evening All:

Men in this country are faced with shorter life spans compared to women.

Feminism in America, has led to women's health issues being privileged at the expense of male healthcare.

Our healthcare community refuses to acknowledge the known fact that there is a significant segment of the male population here in the United States that like their female counterparts, have modesty concerns and, like women and girls, want the our medical community to start respecting their dignity and protecting their privacy much the same way the system has done for over a half a century where women are concerned.

Today, when a man with modesty concerns goes for a male specific intimate exam, test, or procedure, he is faced with the real possibility of being intimately exposed and handled by a gauntlet of women he neither knows, nor wants to be exposed in front of.

To a modest man, this kind of exposure being forced upon him can have devastating results. Effects that some gentlemen never recover from.

Men don't go around making fun of women for wanting a female nurse or aid for their intimate issues.

Makes one wonder why women in today’s society, lead the way and always poke fun at men when they request same gender care for male intimate issues.

Physicians and hospital institutions are responsible for maintaining a patient’s personal privacy and dignity. The healthcare industry should be ashamed at the way they treat men and boys.

Back in the late 1950’s female nurses took care of a female gender specific, intimate related issues. At the same time, male orderlies took care of the male gender specific intimate related issues.

Back then most orderlies were male. They were in effect the nurse’s assistant and helped them out whenever and wherever they could.

From the 1960’s into the early 70’s, women became disenchanted with the healthcare system in place at the time.

In the beginning, there was resistance from the healthcare industry. They had a system in place and it worked for them.

Then the voices kept getting louder. After a while, the healthcare decided if we want to keep our self-rule intact, we better listen otherwise, the federal government might intervene. So, they listened.

So, after listening, the industry concocted a diabolical plan that if implemented would solve their woman issues.

Industry executives, physicians and nurses at the time came together and decided they would better protect a woman’s dignity and privacy, at the expense of their male patients.

At that time society’s view of the female stereotypical role was she was loving, compassionate, caring, and nurturing. Someone who should be protected.

At the same time the view of the male stereotypical role was to be assertive, competitive, independent, courageous; hold his emotions in check at all times.

It was that male stereotype that the industry cleverly used against men back then as they do still today.

The plan evolved by using what is called a BFOQ hiring exception, the industry could save $$$$$ by replacing their male orderlies with female nurses.

Once the nurses were sold on the plan, the deal was done. Men, would never realize until it was too late, the great miscarriage of justice that was done upon them by their fellow human beings.

Hence, our great healthcare system began trading men’s lives for the almighty dollar.

That then begs the question.

What right did they have to decide that men were no longer worthy of basic human respect, and, who gave them the right to make that choice, for another human being?

So, as male orderlies were systematically replaced by female nurses and the nightmare for male patients began.

As far as healthcare was concerned back then as it is today, men don’t have dignity so they don’t need privacy either. Men are just “objects” to the medical community.

Put up, shut up, do as your told, or, don’t seek medical assistance.

That ladies and gentlemen, bring us to where we are today where men’s healthcare needs be damned in favor of feminism.

Regards,
NTT

 
At Tuesday, October 16, 2018 5:05:00 PM, Anonymous JF said...

NTT Why couldn't it work for BOTH genders. We aren't your enemies. We don't want you humiliated. Male doctors are as much the problem as anybody because they set the stage for all this indignanty. The female staff kisses their tail.
About the doctors who won't do vasectomies without another staff member present, firstly that staff person should be male. He should be sitting at a desk with his back to the patients and a screen between them. If ( as so rarely happens) the patients are bleeding, he could then rush to the physicans aide. I wonder who votes these laws in place. Is the public made aware that these laws are being passed or do the medical staff vote and the public is unaware?

 
At Tuesday, October 16, 2018 7:06:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

NTT

You made many very positive comments and I want to add to it. Repeatedly, I’ve said it’s not the fact that female staff perform intimate procedures on male patients, it’s how they perform them. As a male patient you don’t get a private environment to even change into a gown without people ( female staff) walking in on you. Once in a gown not only are you unnecessarily exposed, but for an unnecessarily prolonged period of time.

Not only are you gossiped about with all the shop talk but if you are unconscious you will be unnecessarily exposed and by that I mean in the manner of Denver 5, nurse Johnson in New York, the hospital in Penn. and Dr Sparks. People say “ oh but these are such isolated incidents. That’s what they say and that’s what they want the public to think, notice that whenever there is an incident a hospital spokesperson says “ in no way is this reflective of how patients are treated by our staff.” Well it just happened, what a ridiculous comment to make, pathetic damage control.

PT

 
At Wednesday, October 17, 2018 5:38:00 AM, Blogger NTT said...

Good Morning Everyone:

Hi JF:

You my friend are a dying breed.

Most females in today’s healthcare look to humiliate their patient whenever they think they can get away with it. Most of the time they do get away with it because everybody that knows about is afraid to say something for fear they may be drawn in and have to face the music or they don’t say anything because they thought it was “fun”.

Last night’s essay I posted was but a tiny piece of my nine-page dissertation to America on the male healthcare crisis. I had to condense it due to the 4K character limit.

You are correct in that many doctors (both male and female), set the table for their underlings to misbehave and do nothing about it afterwards. Many times, they set the table for themselves thinking they won’t get caught. They’re thinking patients won’t turn them in because they don’t want to be publicly humiliated in the process.

Healthcare’s number one rule. What the public don’t know is good for business, and that means, business as usual.

If something bad gets out into the public domain, they turn around & spin it so as to not make them look bad.

Move the perpetrator(s) to other areas. Give them time off for good behavior. Then quietly bring them back into the fold to carry on.

The medical community relies on self-rule to get away with what they do. Transparency to them is like a death sentence.

Until the public demand’s full accountability and transparency, they will not change.

You asked who votes on these things. You have other medical people with their Phd’s, health & human services people, and members of congress screw the people with this crap.

Without proper input from the public they serve, healthcare feels they and they alone knows what’s good for the people.

Until the PEOPLE (not the gov't. or medical community) have more of a say in healthcare nothing will change.

Regards,
NTT

 
At Wednesday, October 17, 2018 10:58:00 AM, Blogger Maurice Bernstein, M.D. said...

NTT, agree, but how do the "people" do that in this generation?

 
At Wednesday, October 17, 2018 12:22:00 PM, Blogger A. Banterings said...

Maurice,

The answer is civil lawsuits, filling criminal charges, and naming names on social media.



- Banterings


 
At Wednesday, October 17, 2018 1:15:00 PM, Blogger NTT said...

Good Afternoon:

Dr. Bernstein, a good place to start is your elected officials. The buffoons in Washington are doing nothing to clean up this mess. All they keep doing is appointing yes men and women to positions of influence.

It’s time to tell ALL local and federally elected officials WE the public want REAL change in healthcare. WE want a LARGER say in policy.

We want total and complete transparency within the system from the CEO right down the line to the janitor and everywhere in between.

By way of the power of the vote you tell these buffoons if they want to stay in their cushy jobs, then it’s time to listen to the people that put you there or you will be voted out in favor of someone who will listen and get the job done right.

On a local level people can start getting more involved in the working of their local hospitals. If the hospital is short on say males in a male patient critical area, start making inquiries as to why the shortage & what are they doing to correct it? Get the names of the CEO & board members and ask them why males aren’t treated equally.

Hospitals and doctors don’t like negative publicity so if they don’t act on an issue keep the pressure on until they do. If a patient has a negative experience and passes the word on & it continues to be passed on eventually the negativity will come back to bite them. At the same time if they do something positive for everyone, spread the word on that too.

Healthcare employees have an obligation to themselves, their colleagues, and more importantly to their patients that they are supposed to be advocating for to report any and all wrong doing by anyone they work with. It’s important to report what you saw to the police if warranted because reporting it just to your boss may result in a coverup.

It’s important for patients to NOT let medical institutions cover up their wrong doing. DON’T be bought off. Force the issue out into the public’s eye so they can get a good look at what’s going on at their medical institution.

Find out how your state medical boards work. Who gets on the boards and how do they get there. Next, Find out if these boards have civilian representation on them. If not, why not? Push for change if no civilian representation.

Healthcare likes to do their “thing” in the shadows. The more light you shine on them the less comfortable they will become but at the same time, the more cooperative they will be to talking and compromising.

Right now, our hands are tied until we can find a way to get the male dignity issue out in the wild where healthcare can’t spin it and send it back into the shadows.

There are doctors out there that are unhappy that their patients are being needlessly exposed. What are you doing about it? Join us and lets bring the issues out into the public’s eye so everybody knows about it and we can start a dialogue and come up with a solution everyone can live with.

Our medical community doesn’t like change. That’s why changes in the system move at a snail’s pace. It’s time to move like an avalanche and roll over anything that gets in the way of change.

This isn’t rocket science. Your system is broke. Everyone knows it so stop hiding and let’s come together as Americans do in times of trouble and working together WE can create a healthcare system that’s the envy of the world.

Regards,
NTT

 
At Wednesday, October 17, 2018 9:29:00 PM, Blogger Maurice Bernstein, M.D. said...

Attempting to make changes in the way society accepts or rejects issues of human dignity is frankly complex: political, legal, religious, business and other viewpoints and arguments all can appear to those who propose changes. I recommend our participants here read this brief essay October 17 2018 in "Public Discourse" (Journal of Witherspoon Institute) titled "Respect for the Dignity of Every Human Person: The First Pillar of a Decent Society".

What I am getting at is that, as you can see from the essay, making changes in viewpoint and behavior with regard to patient dignity including males can be an uphill battle. However, I agree with the consensus here that such changes in the medical system ..Maurice.

 
At Wednesday, October 17, 2018 9:34:00 PM, Blogger Maurice Bernstein, M.D. said...

Last sentence correction of my posting:
"I agree with the consensus here that such changes in the medical system is necessary"
..Maurice.

 
At Wednesday, October 17, 2018 10:05:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

NTT

I personally believe the only way to effect change is airing healthcare’s dirty laundry. It needs to be presented in such a fashion to reach a fair amount of mainstream America, but the real audience is the healthcare industry. As you know the laundry is of course the Denver 5, Dr Sparks, nurse Johnson, the incident at a Penn. hospital etc. The public in general don’t think there are issues for male patients, that only female patients face these kinds of behaviors.

Along with the presentation it needs to be made clear that soo many concessions have been made for female patients, mammo, L&D, lack of male ma’s in physicians offices etc. Furthermore, mammography is such an entrenched modality for female patients aside not only the fact that it is a 100% female occupation but that male spouses are often turned away from the waiting room. So entrenched in fact that even male patients with a valid physicians order are turned away because they don’t want Male patients at all in their waiting rooms.

If you can find a medium, outlet to present all the issues, proof then the healthcare industry has to take notice because it’s been placed in the public’s eye. No agency, state, government or any organization for that matter will do anything to act. This must be somehow presented to the public in such a matter to capitalize on discrimination and the emphasis that male patients too are treated unprofessionally.

PT

 
At Thursday, October 18, 2018 5:27:00 AM, Blogger Biker in Vermont said...

A few things. First I don't think female nurses are purposely embarrassing their male patients. Yes of course it happens but it is not representative of the norm. I think the vast majority instead just don't care if their male patients are embarrassed. They see it as they are just doing their job and if the men are embarrassed so be it. That's not good but it is different than purposely trying to embarrass men. At the same time I do believe many choose specialties because of the intimate access it gives them to male patients. What else would explain why some seek careers working for OB-GYN's whereas others seek careers in urology.

On how to fix the system, I still see discrimination based lawsuits as having the best chance. In the current environment, no politician is going to commit carer suicide advocating for men to have equal rights in healthcare settings. Women's groups and their media supporters will not allow it. Modern feminism is all about dominance and control, not equality. Any legislative attempt would be characterized as trying to push women backwards in their career options. As it is we see a constant stream of articles written by female medical students, residents, and young physicians screaming about how tough they have it vs men. At the same time those medical students and young physicians have no concerns whatsoever for male patients in the overwhelmingly female nursing and other non-physician ranks. Medicine is gender neutral and all that.

The solitary legislative action in favor of men I am aware of is that observed urine sampling for DOT exams require same-gender observers. Maybe that can somehow be a springboard for general patient rights, but I don't know how one would go about that.

Lawsuits to date have almost always favored women's employment rights (reporters in locker rooms and staffing in prisons, halfway houses, and adolescent detention facilities). The only exception I am aware of is that psych patients have been deemed to have some same gender intimate exam rights, but I think that has generally been geared towards female patients. Nonetheless, all it would take is the right case getting before the right judge to establish a precedent that would make healthcare start to fall in line respecting male patient dignity. This is why I think lawsuits have a better chance than legislative action.

One last comment is that of terminology that I think the healthcare system has purposely twisted the word "professional". Being a professional is not the same as acting in a professional manner. Anyone can be trained to act in a professional manner but to be a professional requires certain credentials. What those credentials are is fair game for debate, but training and/or expecting employees to behave in a professional manner does not automatically make them a professional. Simply having a license to do something does not make one a professional. Certainly giving someone scrubs to wear does not automatically convey professional status. This is why I strongly object to being told everyone who works in healthcare is a professional. I would rather a more honest statement to the effect that they have been trained to behave in a professional manner.




 
At Thursday, October 18, 2018 8:18:00 AM, Anonymous JF said...

I think it would rock their boat if somebody printed up some bogas consent forms ( of course that person better leave as quickly as he passes out those consent forms) The forms speak of ambush and blindsiding and says " We at such and such clinical don't practice these unethical methods. If you want a same gender support staff just ask!" Also plant some magazines in their office with attention getting covers on them and print up some of what is found on this blog. As well as the address and phone number of who to complain to.

 
At Thursday, October 18, 2018 9:49:00 AM, Anonymous JF said...

Like I have mentioned before, I have lots of revenge fantasies about this issue. Here's one of them. Male doctor is doing an intimidate exam on a male patient and the doctors secretary comes in to speak to the doctor about something that could have waited.
The doctor obviously allowed her to do that. The male patient puts his clothes on immediately after she leaves and follows her out. " THANKS FOR INVADING MY PRIVACY YOU #@;%÷! I WOULDN'T DO THAT TO YOU!" A young black woman speaks up " O NO YOU DIDN'T. F#$&: YOU DIDN'T! " Before another second can laptz she has ripped the secretaries shirt off and grabbed a big handful of her hair. And of course she cuts off a big clump of Secretaries hair with some scizzers.
A few miles away at another clinic another similar scene unfolds, only now the significant other is a gay male. Instead of attacking the secretary however he runs outside and bustes up her car. ( of course the avengers would need to be prison bound already cause they'd likely go to prison for their actions.) But it would bring attention to the issue.

 
At Thursday, October 18, 2018 1:09:00 PM, Blogger NTT said...

Good Afternoon:

For the AMA, and everyone else involved to decide that men were no longer worthy of basic human respect says volumes about the character of the people who work in our healthcare industry.

Their inaction to correct the problem they themselves created, while men who need care are forced to walk away or be humiliated speaks volumes to their personal integrity.

For an industry that forces people to use our legal system as the only way to fix a problem THEY created speaks volumes about the total lack of honor and professionalism in the industry.

It just doesn't seem right that it will take nothing less than a major lawsuit again the industry to make them see they were wrong.

I was wrong. Maybe we don't have some of the brightest minds in the country working in healthcare after all.

Regards,
NTT

 
At Thursday, October 18, 2018 2:18:00 PM, Blogger Maurice Bernstein, M.D. said...

JF et al, in my opinion, your observed facts are more constructive to this discussion than
fantasies. What we are dealing here is about REALITY within the medical system with regard to patient dignity. And it is the REALITY which needs important changes if patient dignity for all genders is to be maintained.
..Maurice.

 
At Thursday, October 18, 2018 3:35:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I’d encourage everyone to take a look at the cell phone violations posted on Propublica.org, titled policing patient privacy. It goes on to say from 2012-2015 there were 47 known reported cell phone violations of cna’s posting to Snapchat of their patients sitting on the commode, in the shower and other areas in nursing homes and LTC facilities. The site further states that there were double the violations from 2015-2018,
yet no one thinks the discussion is worthy.

PT

 
At Thursday, October 18, 2018 4:37:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I’ve been working a lot lately, and have wanted to comment on some of the regular contributors’ information in Volume 91. First, I’d like to note that PT has given us some really great info on the extent of sexual abuse/voyeurism that occurs in hospitals, and of course this is always the female hags violating the male customers. Now, we knew that gaggles of nursing hags run about enjoying their moments of voyeurism on hapless male customers, but now we know that non-medical female hags as well are doing exactly the same. Yes, an unconscious, intubated (and always younger male!) really needs that female speech pathologist to view his bath or catheter care – last time I noticed, unconscious humans can’t respond to help with language skills. And of course the female dietitians are really needed for intubated male customers! So, what we’ve got here in the current collapsing makemsick industry are covens of females literally running about hospitals, eagerly viewing unconscious males for sexual thrills.
This aside, of course, from the female nursing hags routinely violating conscious male customers for sexual thrills. Interesting, is it not, that these hags find their greatest enjoyment in the voyeurism of the male customer who is embarrassed and humiliated, rather than the minority of male customers who enjoy exposing themselves – it’s a SIGNIFICANTLY greater thrill to expose the embarrassed male customer, and this action readily acquaints with present and historical accounts of sexual thrills being found in human torture. Not much healing goin’ on...
I find this most alarming, though not unexpected. If one is open to it, one can feel the prurient energy of these female covens the nano second one walks through the front doors of a hospital, and of course most makemsick offices/clinics. HOW LOW HAS THE MAKEMSICK INDUSTRY, AND OUR CULTURE, FALLEN THAT MALES SEEKING MEDICAL CARE ARE VERY LIKELY TO BE SEXUALLY ABUSED AND HAVE LEGIONS OF FEMALE HAGS OF ALL LEVELS/POSTIONS ACTIVELY PURSING VOYEURISTIC OPPORTUNITIES UPON THEM? CAN FELLOW CONTRIBUTORS SEE HOW SICK THIS SITUATION IS? But, of course, even a casual student of history can attest that sexual abuse in many arenas is part and parcel of collapsing societies. And that nursing haps complain of being overworked – well, we know that is a crock of pure, unadulterated S*&% as they have time to leave their customers to run about and voyeur, even disrespecting the deceased male customer!

EO cont.

 
At Thursday, October 18, 2018 4:39:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Some contributors have pointed out religious grounds for the sanctity of the body within a sexual/romantic relationship, and how such sanctity applies to medical care, and most atheists would agree with this viewpoint as many of us see the sacred everywhere, and are appalled at how it is routinely violated by female hags against male customers throughout the ugly, dying web of the makemsick industry. Rather ironic that such criminal behavior is most readily practiced in the makemsick industry (which falsely purports to support health), but of course many of us know that this industry PROMOTES ILL HEALTH, FROM BIRTH TO DEATH. It’s how they make the big bucks. Yet, as seen from the fascist states of america’s ugly political climate, unfortunately a huge portion of citizens are essentially morons who eagerly suck up negative, incorrect info because it appeals to their lower emotions, especially the primary, foundational emotion of fear. These idiots vote for the current lords of the planet who are busily constructing underground bunkers for when the s*&^ hits the fan as pension funds collapse, welfare checks are greatly reduced/stopped, and martial law overtakes us. Hopefully, my hide should be gone by that time. As a child of the 60s, I awake every day to rather an underlying base of future shock. I can find no comfort in trying to return to an accustomed, human normalcy bias. Nothing left there, because I find no comfort ignoring the growing restrictions upon my freedom and seeking some sort of temporary refuge in idiocy. Doesn’t work for me… and the makemsick industry is a prime example of political/medical fascism. BTW, a bill is being introduced that would repeal the free pass given to the Vaccine Cartel and permit customers to sue directly. Look for that senator to suddenly die from an “accident” or early “heart attack.” Only 1-2% of all vaccine reactions, including death, are reported to VAERS, and it has been deliberately constructed so as to be almost impossible to qualify for a VAERS settlement. Look it up! That 4 billion paid out should be more like 400 billion, and the largest payment is a mere $250,000. Yeah, that will really take care of a vaccine damaged individual for life!

EO cont.

 
At Thursday, October 18, 2018 4:46:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

And thanks, JF, for previously assuming that I, EO, am male. I’ll take that as a compliment! A majority of my friends are men, and I avoid all covens of females, even as a child I did so. Can’t abide their C*#*! As PT said, “Female Starfish are already advocated for and sometimes just sometimes to get the train headed on the right side of the tracks you have to steer it on the wrong side of the tracks.” All female customers when entering the makemsick industry need to be treated as male customers are, basically no choice of gender and humiliated and mocked when they request same gender care! Perhaps a law suit from a female customer re refusal of same gender care could be taken up by a very smart lawyer who can then turn the tables over and start a group lawsuit for male customers. The clowns in Congress have their platinum health plans and don’t give a C%$* about the rest of US men because their platinum plans and position in society assure them of respectful, same gender care. A group lawsuit seems the only way to end the discrimination against male customers as most in the makemsick industry really only care about their oversized paychecks for being the number one cause of death here in the good ole’ fascist states of you know what! These medical critters only understand cha ching! But I’d like to add that the female nursing hags who are screaming so loudly against male customers who demand same gender care are protesting for another reason – THEY DON’T WANT THEIR OPPORTUNITIES FOR VOYEURISM CUT OFF OR SEVERLELY RESTRICTED! I’m glad JF agrees with me that MODESTY VIOLATIONS ARE SEXUAL ABUSE!
And thanks, Banterings, for posting the link to the 5 medics that were fired for dancing around a naked male customer on the OR table. I posted the link many months ago and was hoping someone would comment on this disgusting scenario. Notice, it’s always the female makemsick hags sexually abusing the male customer. And, as a former entertainer/front man and fabulous dancer, I think they should be put in prison just for some of the most disgusting “dance” moves I’ve ever seen. As a dancer, one can be sexy but not lewd, as those makemsick critters were. Yes, men going into hospitals need a spouse or friend TO BE WITH THEM, PROTECTING THEM, FROM THE MOMENT THEY SET FOOT INTO SAID INSTITUTION, INCLUDING ORs. Considering the sloppy job they do re sterilizing procedures and their filthy cell phones they are carrying in their filthy hands, the makemsick argument that protectors would violate the cleanliness of ORs is a bloody sham- the makemsick critters just want to be as sloppy as they feel that day AND get their jollies at male customers’ expense as well. Beckers has had some interesting stories such as the
https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/quality/bone-blood-bugs-found-on-instruments-at-denver-hospital-after-surgical-breach-report-says.html exposing customers to just little infections such as Hepatitis B, C and HIV! Nothing to worry about, we’re professionals! Returning to customer modesty, when the customer is a male, as PT has informed us, “It seems that people are figuring ways of presenting themselves into the exam room with the physician and the patient. I’ve seen the physician’s secretary, medical assistant barge in.” WE KNOW WHY THESE FEMALES ARE BARGING IN, THEY’RE HOPING FOR A SEXUAL THRILL FROM VIEWING AN EXPOSED MALE CUSTOMER! And of course, the physician/provider is equally guilty for allowing this kind of S^*# to occur! PT, you stated if we want examples of female hags running wild in hospitals practicing voyeurism on male customers, you would give us some specific examples. I am requesting that you present us with some specific examples out of all the modesty violations you have witnessed in your long career. I can’t even begin to imagine the C*^* you’ve seen! Thank you. From the general scenarios you have already provided, I can see why being young, male, and unconscious in a hospital is such a dangerous combination!

EO cont.

 
At Thursday, October 18, 2018 4:57:00 PM, Blogger Kathleen Seeley said...

And I agree 100% with Banterings that EMRs are a part of big brother. A medical record should be something that is entered into by both customer and provider, with customer having the last word when an arrogant, ignorant provider tries to inject a comment such as “overly modest male, needs psych exam” or “drug seeker.” Let’s recall that the current ridiculous backlash against prescribing narcotics is an overreaction (putting it mildly)to a problem that was created in the first place by the makemsick industry, which is trained to treat symptoms but has no real idea of what true health is. How can they, since they are not particularly intelligent, and are brainwashed during med school by Big Pharma? Like PT, I would probably even avoid “care” by such critters even in the event of a fatal illness, as I don’t want to be just another victim in their ugly system of disrespect and poisoning. I’d rather go a bit early with my dignity and reasoning power intact!

Thanks for the forum, Maurice. You are one of the very few physicians that possesses any real analytical, reasoning abilities.

Considering the flu “shot”? Think again: https://www.healthnutnews.com/british-medical-journal-flu-vaccines-seem-to-be-modifying-influenza-into-a-dangerous-dengue-like-disease/

My health has been compromised by catching the new vaccine produced pertussis which put me in a coma for 2.5 days and left me with permanent injuries. Yes, vaccinated individuals shed dangerous new and fatal forms of the diseases they were vaccinated for; often these “shedders” have no symptoms. The 2 most compensated for vaccine injuries are from the flu vaccine and MMR. But oh, the cha ching down the line: makemsick early with vaccines (which actually severely harm the immune system) and you've got a customer/sheeple for life!

EO


 
At Thursday, October 18, 2018 6:02:00 PM, Anonymous JF said...

What you just said is true. I wouldn't do what I described that girlfriend / gay lover as doing. At the same time , do you think Rodney King would have been awarded $10 MILLION dollars if it weren't for the criminal elements acting out? My guess is he wouldn't have gotten ANYTHING!

 
At Thursday, October 18, 2018 6:26:00 PM, Anonymous JF said...

Cellphones and videos can be used in a wrong way or a right way. Glossing through the different volumes , I saw a post by Dr B that was similar to one of mine. What I was talking about was intimate exams using videos instead of chaperones. Then everybody talked about the flaws and dangers of doing that.
I have another thought about that. Patients being given a choice about whether to use a video as a chaperone or a human chaperone. The videod exams would be in certain rooms. After an accusation has been made, create doubt in the medical staffers minds. Create some real stress that certain questionable exams have been secretly videod when they actually weren't. Give staff the opportunity to save themselves from job loss and legal consequences if they turn in coworkers. Then when they are being separately interviewed, hook them up to lie detecters.

 
At Thursday, October 18, 2018 8:51:00 PM, Blogger Maurice Bernstein, M.D. said...

May I add another physician, Reginald Archibald (though now deceased) whose story of past sexual misconduct with his patients is now causing pain at Rockefeller University Hospital, New York.. and you all can add today's public disclosure to your list of physicians defying patient dignity with what the hospital now calls "inappropriate conduct during patient examinations."
..Maurice.

 
At Thursday, October 18, 2018 9:17:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Let’s just call it the new show “ Wheel of Misfortune” and at $4 Trillion dollars where it stops nobody knows. The latest at Rockefeller Hospital who cares at this point, it’s happened at every hospital, surgery center, nursing home and Ltc facility. Every facility has all these bones in their closets and they do everything they can to hide it, keep it from the public.

PT

 
At Saturday, October 20, 2018 4:35:00 AM, Blogger Biker in Vermont said...

I think that sometimes when we are voicing our concerns here we do so in a manner that will cause those anonymous people who work in healthcare that might read our posts to not take us seriously. I spent a lifetime as a corporate executive and in public service (as an elected or appointed official) solving problems that came my way. The first thing I did was ascertain did the person actually have a problem they wanted to solve vs their just wanting to vent, and if they wanted to solve a problem, what was that problem.

If they did want to solve a problem and that problem could be defined, next I would ascertain whether there was a realistically possible solution that would be acceptable. If nothing less than a 110 % solution was acceptable, there was no point in vesting much effort in helping them because nothing I did was going to be good enough and they'd still be unhappy. A part of this was were they willing to see the problem from the other party's perspective.

A key piece of my assessment of the person & problem being presented is how they expressed themselves. If they are calling others names vs focusing on the problem behavior or issue, it was always a sign they were more venting than trying to solve a problem. If they were going off on unrelated tangents, again it was more venting than seeking solutions. If they weren't willing to focus on the core issue that was 80% of their complaint, then again it was more venting than problem solving.

The core piece of what we discuss here is men wanting to have the same-gender choices women have for intimate exposure medical situations, and then secondary, when we must have opposite-gender exposure that it only be when necessary (vs when convenient), that it not be for longer than was necessary, and that it not be with extra observers that we did not specifically consent to.

Bringing up vaccines, hospital billing practices, revenge scenarios, the validity of protocols such as DRE's, and so forth are either going to pull those anonymous readers away from the core issues, or possibly just lead them to conclude we aren't serious about the core issues. Nobody that reads this forum is going to re-invent healthcare top to bottom but if we calmly present our same-gender and exposure complaints odds are better they'll hear what we're saying because then we're talking about something that they may be able to do something about.

Another aspect in how and what we say things is that we need to acknowledge that the female nurses and others who may be doing a procedure or prep or are just in the room are there because someone hired and directed then to do what they are doing. It is not realistic for us to expect them to refuse to provide intimate care to male patients because we think it isn't right. They're not going to quit their jobs because we don't want them doing what they were hired to do. Realistic solutions for them involve how they do their job, not whether they do it.

It falls to others above those nurses & techs who do the hiring to address the staffing mix and our complaints in that regard shouldn't be directed at the nurses assigned to our care.

The other aspect I'd look for when addressing problems brought to me was whether the person was exaggerating the problem. In our case, not every nurse is a voyeur or behaves inappropriately. Absolutely some fit that description. Been there more than once, but broad brush statements accusing all female healthcare workers of this will turn away the very people whose help we need. They know such broad brush statements are exaggerations and when we do that it makes us look like we're venting rather than seeking solutions.

 
At Saturday, October 20, 2018 10:50:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Biker in Vermont

You said “ but broad brush statements accusing all female healthcare workers of this will turn away the very people whose help we need. “

So Biker, what help is it that you think they are going to give us? I don’t expect them to do anything, they are the very ones who set this all in motion. They ensured female patients recieve respectful care at the expense of male patients. Regarding your comments about exposure, those expectations are set within State board of nursings guidelines and deviations of those are considered sexual misconduct. I will never expect them to do anything, behave properly nor act professionally, sadly it’s our job. The solution to this problem will never ever come from them,ever. Only through awareness in the public opinion sector, legal or perhaps through Medicare.

PT

 
At Saturday, October 20, 2018 11:05:00 AM, Blogger Maurice Bernstein, M.D. said...

Biker, I fully agree. In fact, such dissection of the problem is what we teach our medical students as they develop a differential diagnosis of a clinical problem.
We emphasize the concept of heuristic errors where the appropriate consideration of the symptoms or final diagnosis is contaminated by unnecessary, not pertinent assumptions. The direction of publicized change should be directed to equality of attention to personal dignity of all patients regardless of gender. All other matters of medical system function, though some may be pertinent to this attention, should not be the primary goal to be disseminated to the system or the public. Broad brushes, like heuristic errors in medical diagnosis, broad brushes may contaminate and distract rather than cure. ..Maurice.

 
At Saturday, October 20, 2018 12:51:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hello,

I'd like to draw your attention to the following article: https://catalyst.nejm.org/patient-narratives-patient-activation/?utm_campaign=editors-picks&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=66791001&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-8mjnzu_LzTcTXnrYHqhOCgq-v5ixuel25BjTX45o-yqbElKHb0J6P4bdGLMuFwVECk4fDijw4dUrrn3uW17EfQTsS2XA&_hsmi=66791001
The comments by
Ms O'Conner and Ms Rogers are insightful.

Reginald

 
At Saturday, October 20, 2018 1:04:00 PM, Anonymous JF said...

They AREN'T taking us seriously. They already WEREN'T taking us seriously.
Ok. Maybe I shouldn't have written my one little revenge fantasy but I don't think this blog in general has done that.
IF the medical world had concerns about male patients not seeking care, they would compare whether or not more men saught care when the male orderlies were employed. Also not all modesty violations are opposite gender. Dr B. If you think my revenge story harmful to this issue, would you please delete it? This issue is a serious issue and in all likelihood people have died because of it. Also people have suffered with symptoms that were/are treatable because of it. I for one think that Healthcare is needed , but our issue needs resolved.

 
At Saturday, October 20, 2018 2:43:00 PM, Blogger Biker in Vermont said...

PT, there is much that an individual healthcare worker could do. They could respond in a professional manner when a male patient asks for a male staff member rather than seeking to bully or embarrass the man for asking. They could ask for permission for a student or other observer to come into the room. They could minimize the exposure in terms of how much is exposed or for how long. They could ask the patient if he'd prefer a male do his catheter. They could respect his dignity.

What I am saying is if we ask in a calm manner for things that they can do we might garner some effort on their part towards those objectives. If we instead call them a hag and a voyeur, accuse them of sexually assaulting all of their male patients, and demand (of people who have no control over who gets hired) that they change the staffing mix, or ban vaccines, or account for why that doctor in another dept does DRE's, it isn't likely they'll take us seriously.

 
At Saturday, October 20, 2018 6:30:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Biker in Vermont

Should we as patients have to ask when those expectations are already extended to female patients? Were the patients of Dr. Sparks given the opportunity, oh my bad they couldn’t because they were unconscious. For years the all female staff in the operating rooms of that hospital never made any complaints, they just laughed, laughed and laughed. Advocating for patients should be an expectation and is it your position that as male patients we have to ASK and remind them to treat us respectfully.

The healthcare industry has treated all male patients with that “ Broad Brush “, I’m just giving it back in return. Respect is a two way street, it’s something that is earned and considering the $4 Trillion dollars they take, that’s a lot of money they have not earned. There really are no excuses just a lot of people who feel victimized by a reckless, greedy and arrogant industry. Gender neutral is just a fancy excuse they use to justify a means and quite frankly I can’t grasp why anyone presents, posts on this blog for no other reason than to express their “ moans and groans” as Maurice describes it which really is a process of being victimized. Posting on this blog is not going to minimize it!

PT

 
At Sunday, October 21, 2018 12:17:00 AM, Anonymous JF said...

PT,I think this blog has already done good. RG, who wrote Ambushed by a Chaperone got some victory. You have said things like " I want everyone to stop bullying me!" You have said other useful things. Told of who to contact.
Patients can speak up and get better repect for that one visit.
I think our biggest mistake on this blog is saying most nurses this. Most MA's scribes. If we act like it happens 9 times out of 10 , they're gonna make dog meat out of us. We just need to stick to how the exposure makes us feel. Mention that the inappropriate behaviors sometimes occur.
Suzy on earlier volumes complained about what I complained about. So did an Elaine. One woman was devastated when male nurses refused to leave the room while she was giving birth.
I have repeatedly pointed out that female staff can and do check out female patients in a voyeuristic kind of way. Not as often as male patients probably. One other reason females aren't as embarrassed is unless we are spread eagled, we're not exposed in an x-rated kind of way. I hope I'm not beating a dead horse. I always thought you and some of the others saying hags and cows was just strong feelings coming through. Kinda like wearing your feelings on your sleeve. It was never offensive to me because as a CNA who only works at nursing homes or assisted living homes, the kind of behaviors you complained about is extremely unlikely to happen and I've never behaved that way and am only aware of it happening twice in all my years as a CNA. One time I turned it in myself as soon as I knew of it. The other,( the one done by a female staffer, was turned in by somebody else.
Back to Twana Sparks and her coworkers. THEY were being cowardly and probably that was.the only thing they were guilty of. You've seen many male patients treated unethically. Dix you speak up? Always? It's sometimes dangerous to do the right thing.

 
At Sunday, October 21, 2018 4:27:00 AM, Blogger Biker in Vermont said...

PT, what I am talking about is if at an individual level I want to change the behavior of those healthcare staff that I interact with or if I want to influence anonymous healthcare workers who might be reading this forum, that an approach which might actually yield some results is better than calling them hags, voyeurs, and accusing them of sexually assaulting all their patients.

No, men shouldn't have to ask for the same degree of deference given to female patients, but the fact is we have to. Acknowledging reality greatly increases the chances of solving a problem versus addressing it in theory. Cultural norms are as deeply ingrained as they are because men haven't asked for same gender care or to have their dignity respected. By their silence men have tacitly approved of the situation.

The other thing is asking someone to solve a problem that is beyond their ability to solve is wasted effort. That individual nurse cannot cause legislative solutions to happen any more than you as a healthcare worker can, so I don't blame her or you for the present state of affairs.

A year ago when I had my problem with Dermatology had I gone into Patient Relations ranting about the hags and voyeurs and saying they wanted to sexually assault me, I would not have been taken seriously and they would not have made the efforts they did to come up with a solution. I probably would have been escorted out of the building and gotten a letter suggesting I find another hospital that might meet my needs. By calming stating my complaint w/o embellishment, being clear as to what it was I wanted, and keeping what I wanted within the realm of what could be done, they proceeded to work out a satisfactory solution.

With the urology dept when I make an appt. I politely ask for a male nurse to do the prep. In theory they should ask me what my preference is but the reality is that's not going to happen. By my simply asking to be assigned a male nurse the fact that some men want same gender urological care is reinforced with that practice and by my being polite in making my request I am signalling them that ordinary men want this. If I instead ranted at them for having hags and voyeurs on staff, I am instead going to reinforce the stereotypes held by some in healthcare than men who want same gender care have some sort of problem.

Rants are a very ineffective way to effect change.

 
At Sunday, October 21, 2018 2:07:00 PM, Blogger Maurice Bernstein, M.D. said...

The current Presidential Administration is demonstrating no concern about human dignity:
First: The Strange Disappearance of LGBT Content From Federal Websites and today New Legal Definition of Gender

So now the question: Is each individual's personal dignity attacked if each individual's self-identity of gender is taken away by our government? ..Maurice.

 
At Sunday, October 21, 2018 2:31:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maurice

I couldn’t care less what the LGBT community complains about etc. The two primary genders are male and female and when the other half of the genders, male are respected then I’ll lend support. BTW, that goes to the female side too. I couldn’t care less.

PT

 
At Sunday, October 21, 2018 5:47:00 PM, Blogger Maurice Bernstein, M.D. said...

But PT, think about this. If we are talking about personal dignity of each patient, that dignity is not defined by the genitalia at birth but by the way the individual sets and looks upon and acts directly and in response regarding their current sexuality regardless of their genetic definition. Or are we discussing something about bodily anatomy and genitalia exposure and misuse of professional power and not really about intrinsic patient dignity and how it should be applied to medical professional behavior? ..Maurice.

 
At Sunday, October 21, 2018 6:50:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maurice

Medical care should not be custom tailored to any specific gender, unfortunately it is for female patients from a dignity standpoint, therefore until corrective measures and the re-education of the medical community are made no one else should get “ special treatment”. Truth be told the LGBT community are treated the worst in healthcare, I’ve seen it for years. The HIV stigma, transgender have impacted negatively those that identify as such. I’ve actually seen nursing staff get upset when a patient who presents as a male actually has female genitalia at which point the nursing staff became upset, they expected to see a penis. Really, who cares!

This is proof, a litmus test so to speak of the vastness as to how certain patients are treated indifferently. Male patients are turned away with a physicians order for a mammogram while female patients are bathed in luxurious pink robes and attended to by all female staff. There is no other litmus test that you can find, no need to go on, this settles it and it’s what you call custom tailored healthcare. You see the vast majority of the LGBT that are discriminated by healthcare are gay males and transgender males. Gay female patients don’t even register on the medical community freak scale and that may be do to many females in healthcare are actually bisexual. Yet refer to gay males and transgender males as freaks.

It would be a positive improvement for males that identify as gay or transgender if ALL males are treated respectfully, I’m not going to champion for them, I’m not here for that as you see from my explanation if I’m going to champion for males then it’s for all male patients, I don’t really care how they register.

PT

 
At Sunday, October 21, 2018 7:17:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maurice

Now that you’ve opened up a can of worms on the subject of the LGBT patient community I’ll give you more narrative for all to ponder. There is a large segment of the female nursing, cna population that are Lesbian, Bisexual, transgender and Dominatrix. Considering female nurses that are Dominatrix no other occupation gives females more “ PAID” access to males than nursing. From a perspective of getting paid well and to carry out this fetish nursing is the gig! You will probably never be able to identify which female nurses fall into this category.

From the Dominatrix perspective their fetish will override, supersede to need to advocate, deliver compassionate care. When female nurses were instructed to strike patients with an erection using a metal spoon who do you think this act most reached out to, the Dominatrix. I have read on cna forums that some cna’s could not wait to insert urinary catheters in male patients forcefully, disregarding stricture.

You want examples, I’ve got truckloads.

PT

 

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