Preserving Patient Dignity (Formerly Patient Modesty) Volume 128
Here, from EM's post in Volume 127 (November 2 2023) is a wonderful summary of this series of Volumes on Patient Dignity but also about the many years of publication of my blog itself. EM, thank you, thank youfor your research and evaluation. ..Maurice
Dr. Bernstein,
Congratulations on your upcoming birthday! I wish you all the best and continued good health.
You have created quite a legacy with this blog. I would like to thank you for the time and effort you have expended over the many years. I am retired now but can’t imagine being dedicated to something for over 20 years. I have seen several other blogs/sites that have addressed the same issues but none that have reached the quality and quantity of the discussions on your blog. It has been very therapeutic for me even though it took 8 years for me to contribute. I agree that the existing content should not be lost no matter what happens to the blog in the future.
I first found the site in 2014 and eventually went back and read all the posts since its inception to gain an understanding of what people have experienced. You added great value to the blog because of your medical background/perspective and thoughtful questions which prompted lively discussion. That does not really occur on other non-moderated platforms although there are responses from classes of people such as doctors or nurses. I don’t know how much time and effort that is required of you to maintain the blog but I would certainly understand if you were ready to step back from it.
I think the concepts of medical modesty/dignity have been thoroughly discussed and illustrated. Most participants in this blog understand what should be done to address the issues but the big question is whether there will be any movement towards the goals in the future or even how to accomplish them. I would hope that societal norms might change to embrace the concepts this blog espouses but due to the looming shortage of medical personal and the major problems the country faces, I am pessimistic that things will change.
The drop-off in readership could be due to a number of reasons. There are newer platforms that people may be more familiar with, such as Quora. I also think that interest in the idea of Medical Modesty/Dignity is somewhat random and occurs when people have a negative experience while seeking medical care. People who have positive experiences generally are not going to be doing searches on the topic. I also think that the horrific state of affairs in this country and the world over the last several years could have distracted people and suppressed interest. I personally find it difficult to think about the blog when we seem to be walking towards nuclear war and the economy/financial future of the country is in jeopardy due to indifference of our elected officials.
EM
posted by Maurice Bernstein, M.D. @ 10:59:00 AM
181 comments
181 Comments:
How about starting out this Volume wit my blog presentation from February 22, 2008:
"Is Being A Modest Doctor a Virtue and Benefit for Their Patients? ..and the blogger visitor responses? Here is the link and write your responses here to 128.
https://bioethicsdiscussion.blogspot.com/2008/02/is-being-modest-doctor-virtue-and.html
..Maurice
Happy Birthday Dr. Bernstein! You continue to be a force of good in this very troubled world of ours.
I am away for a few weeks and my tech options aren't all that great and I thus haven't gotten to that 2008 article yet, but I'll try.
Being 93 years of age tomorrow, Biker, this blog is now my only source of "force" to those here and my daily world-wide blog visitors but thank you for your comment.
Let's hope it can continue for a while.
..Maurice.
Hello Dr. Bernstein,
Happy Birthday! Thank you for the work you've done in providing us with an outlet for our frustrations with current medical procedures. I'm sure that I speak for others when I say that we are truly grateful for your efforts. May God bless you with many more years of health and happiness.
Take care.
Reginald
Happy birthday Dr B
We are blessed to have you in our corner. Otherwise sometimes medical staff may try to tell us that we are the only person to have strong feelings of modesty in a medical setting that they have ever encountered. That's why a staff meeting where certain parents being their speaker could be useful. I have theories why that doesn't happen ( or It's more controlled what they can say if it does happen. )
Years ago I read something of when doctors began delivering babies instead of midwives
More of the mothers were dying than they had been earlier. Some one came up with the theory that it was because the doctors weren't washing their hands between patients and there was a lot of resistance to that theory. My first thought was why the resistance? Why not just put it to the test? But then it occurred to me it was nobody wanted to believe that their mistake caused the women to die.
Medical modesty could be the same principle. It could even be that if it could be clearly seen that patients do much better when modesty is regarded that medicine might be made accountable for harm done to patients. It's just a thought. JF
JF, that info (more maternal deaths from doctors than midwife’s) came from Dr Atul Gawande’s book titled Better. In that book he also tells the story of Virginia Apgar. It’s a great book.
Just an observation that speaks to the general thinking in society as concerns male vs female privacy. Pretty much every public debate about transgender bathroom & locker room issues centers on teenage girl's and women's rights to privacy in bathrooms and locker rooms. Teenage boy's and men's bathroom and locker room rights to privacy is not part of the public discussion. This scenario repeats itself in men's vs women's prison staffing, boy's vs girl's halfway house staffing, female fitness club staff in the men's locker rooms but never male staff in the female locker rooms, and female reporters in college & professional men's sports locker rooms vs no male reporters in female college & professional sports locker rooms. Is it then any wonder that the ongoing double standard as concerns patient privacy plays out unabated in the healthcare system? Society as a whole has a double standard. Healthcare is just playing by the same rules.
This morning in NC I drove past a business advertising themselves as a "men's clinic" and decided to look them up to see what they are about. It is a very small operation specializing in male sexual dysfunction. There is one male doctor and two female "patient counselors" that were featured in a short video on their site. There wasn't any indication as to what the counselor's level of licensure, if any, was.
Biker, you make an excellent point! But I would like to add that, ironically, many of these male modesty violations happen because of the decisions made by other males. For example, when Judge Constance Baker Motley made her decision in 1978, she did not rule that women reorters had to be allowed into male locker rooms but that they needed to be granted the same access as male reporters. She left the logistics up to the teams. They could have decided to bar all reporters or set up separate interview rooms. The Women's National Basketball Association does allow male and female reporters into the locker for a half hour post-game. Then all reporters have to leave, allowing the women to shower and dress without any reporters present. But, in the male professional sports leagues, MALE owners and general managers chose not to make any provision for player privacy and modesty creating the current situation. If men stood together in demanding that their modesty be respected like women do our modesty and privacy rights would be much more respected today.
MG
How is it that what used to be clear as a bell when it came to social mores and exceptable actions versus unacceptable become so confusing to people?
I think in an effort to create equality like equal pay for equal work and equal job opportunities it now seems that they want there to be no delineation between a man and a woman.
What started as a worthy cause has turned into a monster and men became the biggest losers.
Women started to gain what they always deserved but men got caught in the crosshairs of what seems like retribution
It seems that far to many people’s moral compass is broken and we are on a down hill slide that will only end in a societal disaster
In ways we are already there. men that no longer want to be men and and choose to mutilate themselves and women doing the same and doctors that are willing to put the Hippocratic oath aside and facilitate the mutualization. GOD HELP US
MG.
Thanks for making that point about the role of certain males in creating the problem. I remember in the 7th grade in Phys Ed the teacher required us to fully undress and take a shower. I refused to do it and she was enraged about it. It's what the male athletes should be doing. If I were the wife of one of those athletes I think I might become ugly about the immortality of it.
JF
Hello,
Jeff seems to adequately summarize our society's loss of sexual/gender identity. The following two articles further support our loss of medical integrity. May Indi Gregory and Tristin Smith rest in peace knowing that they will no longer suffer at the hands of the medical profession. Possibly, Dante's sign over the gates of hell could also be placed over the hospital entry doors - "Abandon all hope ye who enter here." Coupled with the tragedy in the Middle East, we live in a very sad time.
Reginald
https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/critically-ill-british-girl-taken-off-life-support-dies-family-lawyer-2023-11-13/
Indi Gregory
https://nurse.org/articles/nurse-died-by-suicide-letter-to-abuser/
Tristin Smith
I have mentioned in the past that our local hospital takes out a large ad in the newspaper introducing any new MD, DO, PA, or NP that they hire. Most recently this was a new female PA hired into the urology practice. That practice now consists of her, a female MD that I have not heard anything bad about, and a male MD that is past normal retirement age. The male MD has a poor reputation locally and many men that I know won't go to him. Those same guys won't go to the female MD simply on the basis that they aren't comfortable seeing a female urologist. Many local guys thus either go 1.5 hours to NH where I go, or they head an hour in the other direction to see that county's sole urologist that is only there part time. He has a great reputation and the demand is such that it is difficult to get an appt. with him.
The combination of retaining the male urologist that guys don't want to go to and only hiring females as his replacement is causing the local hospital to be losing a lot of business. I am left wondering if they are clueless about what is happening or if it is purposeful pushing the community to a 100% female urology practice so as to earn woke points.
Jeff,
The medical mafia seems to be very complicit it this as they are the ones orchestrating the mutilations as it will benefit them no matter if the person lives out their life as a trans or changes back--that person is a lifelong patient. The medical world has long pushed "cures" or treatments they know will make a person a lifelong patient. Just look at the prescription meds mess. Prescribe one and many more will follow to treat the adverse symptom. Medicine is rarely a cure but rather a giant band-aid which how good any band-aid is depends on different things like money, etc. The medical mafia has been at the forefront of the mutilation of young kids that we are told are not old enough to drink, drive, vote, etc. but somehow know they don't like the sex they were born in. For adults, it is a different story but yet many of them are still being pushed into making a bad decision by the medical mafia which includes the mental health aspect of it. Many of those so-called mental health experts could use real mental health help from practical, real people. So many of them cannot survive their own person situations but yet are somehow competent to advise others? I have seen some close up and personal and I cringe knowing they are telling others how to live their lives.
Women are going to lose whatever gains they made by this current belief that a man can in the morning become a woman but then at night he can be a male again. Of course, men don't seem to have any rights. It is certainly a screwed up world in which we live. We are being force-fed by the media to accept all these strange and unacceptable changes. The media is of course funded by the medical mafia. It is all like a circus. Take for instance, these actresses who decide to bare all or wear clothing to promote sex and then become very vocal about being viewed by men as sex objects. It is what they have sold and made their money on being but yet they are too ignorant to admit they are the ones who caused the issue. This is what we will see the medical community do when all this medical harm becomes undeniable. They will deflect and pretend they are the victims. This is what they do when one of them is harmed by a patient. Never do they give the answer as to why a patient might have harmed them but rather we must protect them. Never do they admit what they have done to harm a patient. I see no end in sight for this as many are not brave enough to take on the medical mafia.
JR and everyone
I remember as a kid I loved carnival rides but not the one’s that went in circles at least only for short periods of time. They would make me sick
I feel like that is what our world has become, one big merry go round and I think I’m going to be sick !
Within the United States, the holiday of Thanksgiving is coming up shortly on our calendar. There is much within this country, as with its early occupation and development to retain a feeling and need for "thanks".
Now, as this holiday is arriving, can this appropriate "thanks" also apply to the entire medical profession within this country?
Any ideas from my visitors as to what portion of the upcoming "thanks" applies to this profession virtually all living here have had contact with sometime within their lives?a ..Maurice
Dr. Bernstein, despite my complaints, I am very grateful for modern medicine. It has saved my life 3 times already that I know of.
Coming from a family where the men are not generally long lived, modern medicine perhaps has contributed to me having already exceeded the longevity norms.
We had our Thanksgiving Dinner yesterday so my niece who is a nurse could attend. Her dad died last year. He was able to attend her daughter's third birthday last year but didn't make it to Thanksgiving. I have a lot of gratitude to the surgeon doctor who removed my gallbladder in 2006. I was unbelievably sick and since my family doctor didn't figure it out in a timely manner I strongly suspect I would have died really soon. I was excited instead of nervous and laughed while I was being put under. That doctor is my hero and always will be. JF
Medical workers including doctors, nurses, etc. don't do what they do for free. It is their job they have chosen. Should I be grateful for them sexually and medically assaulting my husband? I have been told that despite this he and I should be glad he didn't die by their hands but didn't a big part of us die when they decided to harm him? As far as medicine itself, the "advances" that have been made IMO aren't that great. Medicine is a giant band-aid. Despite all the years and all the money plus all the people dying, we still cannot cure cancer, diabetes, or really even heart disease. While there may be some good workers in the medical community, I can't help focusing on the bad ones so we don't get caught unaware again. Though they did not physically kill my husband, they have destroyed his desire to ever be in a hospital again so the question is as always: What good is healthcare if you are afraid of how it is delivered? When patients are no longer being harmed on purpose by the way healthcare is delivered to them, I could perhaps be thankful. Until then, to me they are no different than other criminals who maybe in being in the vicinity of them haven't harmed me yet. With as violent as the country has become in the past 3 years, we should be more thankful not to be harmed by our government's actions and the criminals it allows to rule the streets.
I remembered another incident where hospital staff really stepped up to the plate for our family in 1997 what my mom had a horrible heat attack. She worked at the hospital as a substance abuse counselor and was at work when she had the heart attack. She was in a horrible condition and was hooked up to all kinds of tubes and wires. She appeared to be actively dying and it continued that way for a couple of weeks. Nobody thought she would survive but finally she. When she returned to work or otherwise came in as an outpatient the nurses stared at her in amazement .She lived for 11 years after that. JF
But, JR, in every profession, in every workman's jobs there are those humans (who are human beings like you, me and all of us at the the highest biologic level) and who simply transiently or repeatedly misbehave or carry out worse activity. It is unfair to those of us humans who behave or make every effort to behave for the benefit, not always for their own benefit, but for society (the rest of us). Can all of us, should all of us, be dumped into the same pot to be successfully discarded from society? Should the successes of society to the benefit of humans and others be dumped into the same pot and regularly discarded?
Not every societal success will be directly beneficial to every human, animals or other creatures in nature but generally the benefit is valuable for many.
With regard to the preservation of patient dignity, we must extend our concerns to the preservation of societal dignity through the way we all review and act upon all the events that flow through our knowledge and lives. ..Maurice.
Hooray! On this blog thread, here is a topic posted in 2009 on this very topic with reader responses:
https://bioethicsdiscussion.blogspot.com/2009/05/painting-groups-with-same-brush-as.html
Painting Groups with the Same Brush
Go to the link above, read and come back here and respond. ..Maurice.
PT, it appears that you were the only response to that posting. Do you have any 2023 updates to that view ..Maurice.
Hooray for medicine. In this example international medicine.
Last century an acquaintance competed in international rowing which "ruined" his back. Only a surgeon in Amsterdam, Netherlands would fuse all five vertebrae in one operation at a out-of-pocket cost of $50K. Netherlands was added to avoid any possible confusion with the TV show "New Amsterdam" about a fictional hospital in NYC. The show is so camp that it's a must view, at least for several shows.
Hooray for medicine. In this example international research.
In the 1980s I was diagnosed with kidney stones. I considered lithotripsy, but since it was barely past the experimental stage and only offered in Munich, Germany I decided on local surgery. At the one month follow-up, the surgeon said that he cut the vein putting pressure on the ureter so I should have no future stones. This made me brave enough [I would never see him again] to tell the surgeon that I considered lithotripsy. He responded with the negatives of ultrasound. I wasn't brave enough to tell him that maybe he should research [as I did] the non-surgery treatment of kidney stones at the local med school library. Both lithotripsy and ultrasound [with too many chemical treatments of kidney stones] were described in SCOPE, medical magazine for urologists. His reaction only reminded me that "once a surgeon only a surgeon" which is a variation of "if your only tool is a hammer, then every problem is a nail".
BJTNT
Dr. Bernstein,
Sorry, I am late to the discussion as usual but I want to comment on questions asked earlier in this volume before I catch up.
I would prefer my doctor have an open mind and realize that there may be new treatments since he/she graduated from medical school. I wouldn’t mind being told that additional research might be useful, but based on previous experience and education, this is the treatment I would recommend. I wouldn’t necessarily expect my physician to do all the research and would conduct the research myself and then ask for an opinion. For example, as an aging male, there will probably be a time where surgical intervention will be required for my BPH. For years, TURP was the gold standard but I have been reading/researching alternatives such as UroLift, Resume, and various laser treatments. There is also now an image guided high-pressure water ablation technique that looks promising.
I think advertising that included additional degrees, affiliations and rewards would be useful. I would like to know if the doctor has participated in ongoing research and training. This ties directly to the previous paragraph.
As far as appearance of the doctor, I would prefer a more modest approach to appearance. I would question excessive displays of wealth and wonder if a surgeon was prone to expensive, high-return surgeries instead of trying something more conservative first. I have only had a single female PCP and struggled with the potential for intimate exposure. I specifically choose a female provider 9 years ago as an attempt at self-imposed immersive therapy to get over my modesty issues. She dressed business casual and I would probably be put off if she were dressed like she was ready to hit the bars. An example of ow appearance affects perceptions could be illustrated by something that happened at a diversity/sexual harassment type training course I was forced to attend when I worked for the phone company. A young woman got up to speak and was complaining about not being taken seriously and that men looked at her as sexual object instead of a competent peer. She was wearing a skin-tight, very high cut mini-dress suitable for nightclubs. My thoughts towards her were not very professionally oriented.
I would hope that a physician’s own personal issues regarding their own bodily modesty would aid in understanding how a patient feels about their bodily modesty during examinations assuming the doctor is not completely uninhibited. Regardless of the physician’s personal issues, they must be able to view naked bodies in order to provide care.
Biker – I am astounded at the number of all-female staffed boutique clinics related to men’s sexual health. I was curious about a new procedure using shock-wave therapy to help Peyronie's disease and in general promote penile health. I visited one equipment manufacture’s website and searched for providers in Florida and around the country. A large percentage were all-female staffed offices and it struck me that men are much more accepting of this than women would be. An all-male staffed office providing vaginal rejuvenation would probably never get a single patient. Of course, visiting these clinics is more voluntary than the experiences that are forced upon men in hospitals and many traditional doctor offices. I have been working on a question to pose to the forum as to why the double-standard exists and my thoughts as to why it exists. A major premise of my conclusion is that men are our own worst enemies and perpetuate the current societal expectations and norms of male modesty. This premise could help explain situations that exist with access to sports lockers rooms as discussed my MG and JF.
EM
Dr. Bernstein,
I too am very thankful to the medical profession and the dedication and sacrifice that went into gaining the medical knowledge and skills to provide lifesaving treatments and care. With the exception of my kidney stones issues, most of my surgeries are not life endangering have helped provide me with a better quality of life.
In general, I want to think that caregivers are very special people whose choice of profession is a calling. Outside of the bad experiences, I have always been fairly smitten by the nurses that took care of me during the rare hospitalizations that I have had. A caring attitude, a reassuring touch is an amazing gift that has been mostly absent in my life for the last 25 years. I am pretty sure that I could not help people with their daily bodily functions or see people who are at their physical worst and am very thankful that there are people who can.
Unfortunately, most people that post to this blog have been hurt physically and/or mentally by medical professionals whether it was intentional or not. The more egregious examples that people have blogged about seem to be intentional which is especially disturbing and describes what happened to me. As JR said, medical personnel chose this profession and the bad apples seem to be in it just for the money.
I have spent many hours the last couple of weeks reading hundreds of posts on Quora and Reddit from medical personnel (doctors and mostly nurses) concerning nudity, medical modesty, and urological practices, etc. Sadly, most of the responses are self-focused and are typical of the ad nauseam responses that many people get. Most are along the lines of “Nudity is nothing to us, we see so many naked people”, “We have seen thousands of penises and vaginas and they are no different than a hand or foot”, “Get over yourself, you don’t have anything I haven’t seen before”, “I would never talk or laugh about a patient’s naked body”. The repeated intimate exposure of patient’s during their care has desensitized the caregiver.
A tiny minority of the responses actually acknowledge the experience from the patient’s point of view and show some type of understanding and compassion of how embarrassing and humiliating the medical experience can be. Most of the “understanding” responses occurred because the poster had the same experience as a patient themselves. Unless a caregiver has been a patient themselves, it simply doesn’t seem to register in their mind. Pardon the pun, but a “big” example is that women will never experience an analog to a male’s unwanted and spontaneous erection or the fact that their genitalia does not change size in reaction to external conditions such as cold. In addition, there is not a societal fascination with the size of women’s genitalia and the ridicule that exists if someone doesn’t measure up to expectation. Some of concerns about modesty can be attributed to religious beliefs and other factors but mostly it is a person’s fear of being judged by other people. One poster shared a picture of a coffee mug in the break room of the urology practice that had written on the side, “Life is short, and so is your penis”.
Also, there is a shocking callousness to a number of postings from nurses concerning patient exposure and procedures such as male urinary catheterization. The nurses sounded almost angry when discussing patients that attempted to protect their modesty and minimize exposure. There were a number of responses that discussed male catheterizations and how a nurse should aggressively grab the penis and forcibly advance the catheter to minimize the amount of time the process took. It was stated that patient’s protest or claims of pain should be ignored.
EM
I am somewhat nervous as I am one week from my shockwave therapy (ESWL) to break-up my recurring kidney stones. Even though it did not work before, I am hoping this works because I don’t want to undergo an Ureteroscopy with laser lithotripsy which requires total genital exposure for the entire procedure from the time you are put under until you leave for PACU. It was the bad experiences after two of these procedure 9 years ago that caused me to almost take my life and I am not eager to go down that road again.
It will be very interesting to see what transpires during my ESWL and cystoscopy. After I explained my past, my urologist said that it wasn’t a problem to have a male team and no women would be “touching” me except for the preoperative IV. This may mean there will be females assisting/observing during the cystoscopy and I try not to even think about what exposure happens in PACU and Recovery.
I may return to his practice for my testosterone pellets treatment after I explained that I was upset with him for bringing a young woman (medical student?) into my DRE exam (I asked her to leave the room) and including 5 people during the pellet insertion. He said he didn’t realize it was a problem/concern and he was glad I told him.
BJTNT – At least my urologist suggesting trying ESWL first. Perhaps there is hope for the system.
EM
Dr. Bernstein,
I read your posting from 2009 and agree that a few bad apples should not cause an entire class of people to be vilified.
Unfortunately, when people are really upset, broad generalizations are common. I don’t think all medical personnel are bad and even when there are bad experiences, I would like to believe that only a small minority of medical personnel have malicious intent.
There is a small minority that really seem to understand the concept of modesty/dignity and the remaining majority are probably not malicious but rather they are under a false assumption perpetuated by society, i.e., “Men are not modest and don’t mind being exposed.”, or that they have been desensitized to nudity to the point that they are not even thinking about how a patient feels about modesty concerns. This is particularly common when the medical person involved has never been a patient themselves. I am sure the problem is compounded by the shortage of medical staff and the person is thinking of all the things that need to be done on their shift and the quickest way sometimes compromises patient dignity and modesty.
While I believe in personal responsibility for one’s actions, it is beneficial for a group to call out the bad actors in their group who are causing the entire group to be pictured in a bad light. I was encouraged that during my reading of all the posts from medical personnel on other sites there were a number that said bad behaviors were not acceptable at their workplace and that they or their peers “tore into” co-workers that were disrespecting patients.
When proven, violators need to feel the repercussions of their actions. Often times, it seems that violations are “swept under the carpet” with the “Denver 5” nurses being a sad example. I don’t think anyone lost their nursing license and they simply got a slap on the wrist.
Sadly, everything is hyper-politicized and it affects the way events are portrayed in the media and how things play out. Had the sexes been reversed in the Denver 5 case, there would have been a firestorm of outrage.
Another example would be of murders committed in this country. Black on White crime and Black on Black crimes are pretty much ignored but an instance of White on Black crime makes headlines. Racial based killings are horrific but because of politics, some killings seemed to be ignored. For example, every weekend, there are multiple shootings in Chicago affecting primarily black people and yet the media won’t touch the story and nothing is done to protect the people most affected. It simply does not fit a desired narrative that the people in power want to exploit.
EM
Hooray for medicine.
I see delivery of medicine as the "lesser of evils", i. e. accept it rather than do without.
Thanks to the delivery of medicine my hip was replaced so that I can walk - yes, a very big deal.
But during that same hospital stay I got pancreatitis and too many benzos [or whatever was in the continuous IV cocktail] resulting in considerable erosion of the quality of my life, both physically and mentally.
Before hospital stay my blood sugar reading rarely exceeded 130 and after the stay the glucose averaged 250+. A big deal.
Before hospital I could recognize and recall within 10 seconds of viewing TV shows and movies that I had seen the show w/ no desire to watch again because I could remember the plot, the character development, the twists, and the ending. Now it takes 8-9 minutes to recognize that I have seen the show, but can watch it again as a "new" show w/ usually 2 more times during an hour show that I recognize that I've seen it.
My short term memory was impacted to the extent that I can't multi-task. It's good I'm retired because I could never do my work job now.
The delivery of medicine did in 10 days [in hospital] what I would expect Mother Nature to take 10 years. It's noticeable when a big change happens in less than 2 weeks.
The control freaks in medicine still need to do some research to impact patients more. I retained my internal timer and clock - probably buried too deep in the subconscious to access - give them time.
Can I say that I've taken Fentanyl? When I told the anesthesiologist of my negative reactions to Versed, he said OK, Fentanyl. Then again, I recall the Jan. 23, 2023 Hastings Center report on "lying".
BJTNT
Generally speaking people don't have each other's back. If reporting a coworker is going to cause some kind of backlash or even if it just MIGHT cause a backlash a large number of people will just keep quiet. I've been guilty myself. It's HARD to go against the floor. JF
Dr. B.,
I agree it may be thought of as being unfair but is it fair for us to have to think this way? I don't believe good guys wear white hats identifying themselves so we must have a method in place and believing all are capable of doing bad reminds us of just that. Those who write here have encountered "bad apples" maybe not to the extent that my husband did but they have been intentionally harmed either by a system that does not care, staff that does not care or a mixture of both. Jeff has actively pursued same sex care and has been denied even suffered medical retribution. While it is true that most of us have had some positive encounters, we wouldn't be on this blog if we still didn't see the issue of bodily dignity being routinely violated. Most here are constantly on guard to protect their basic human right of bodily dignity. Is is fair that so many in the medical community fair to recognize the need for and provide for bodily dignity? Why is the definition of what constitutes bodily dignity so different between the medical staff and the patient actually on the receiving end?
Cindy and I did a couple of shows on an article from https://iahssf.org/research/preventing-patient-abuse-why-abuse-happens-and-how-to-stop-it/
and it has some very interesting points in it. There is a term when describing patient abuse- coerced nudity which describes what many on this blog has suffered. It defines in detail the various types of patient abuse. This article mainly covers elders but it does talk abt the silent abuse that happens to those who are not elderly. I think this article is worth a read. Of course, I believe its origins was elsewhere as the US tends to like to sweep patient abuse under the rug. It talks about how much abuse is bc uneducated/untrained staff and the atmosphere of the medical system.
Many men on this blog has suffered verbal abuse. The medical staff will use verbal phrases to intimidate male patients into "accepting" female care they do not want for various reasons. Phrases like "we have seen it before", etc. are used to intimidate male patients into submission which is verbal abuse. Jeff, just as my husband, suffered physical abuse. This is something that is not easily if ever recovered from as the betrayal of ingrained trust has been violently severed. Just as a woman who has been raped who avoids dark alleys or parks, the victims tend to avoid further medical harm thus is why I "generalize" all as being capable of being bad. Jeff like my husband is very careful abt selecting who, where and what medical he gets. I have come to understand that most do not understand the deep trauma thrust upon victims of medical harm. I imagine ordinary modesty violations do not do the damage or cause the PTSD like what happened to my husband and to Jeff. Before all this happened, my husband did not avoid females for intimate care as he like many others seem to believe he as a patient had no rights so he followed the orders given to him. He did not enjoy the strip as you exams nor did he enjoy any intimate care given by a female nurse, ugly or pretty (as some believe a pretty nurse is better than an ugly one which is also being sex into the equation).
I have probably frequented nine PCPs and four urologists during my lifetime.
Most of the PCP visits were for yearly checkups and now more frequent routine visits.
When a new medical franchise opened in my local area, I asked to interview an MD. A female MD, her first job, was acceptable to me. With only a few patients I'm sure her decision to accept me was an easy one.
She was the only PCP/urologist/MD that every did a testicular exam which she did at every annual checkup. Is this significant - only one MD? We got along great for about eight years until her contract was not renewed for spending too much time with patients. Was she the exceptional MD?
I object to all female caregivers that require genital exposure except for female MDs - I figure they have earned the privilege.
My TURP had an all male support staff, but I was left on my gurney in the hallway outside the recovery room. Every several minutes a young female lifted the blanket for her peek until I pulled my gown down. Then I was taken to my hospital room.
BJTNT
The worst thing done to me was probably the medical retribution! Suffering dissociative, amnesia due to emotional trauma I was forced to endure is at the top of the list. The fact that a woman was willing to rip an catheter through my urethra with the balloon inflated left me with a gift that keeps on giving both emotionally and physically.
It is really a shame that because of my experiences I have to look at anyone in scrubs as a potential threat to me emotionally and physically when they should be seen as healers. I don’t believe that all medical people have the intention of doing you harm but the desensitization that occurs to most is driven by a mentality in the system and is intentional that because what they have become comfortable with makes their ability to override common decency easier with each person they intimately expose thereby increasing productivity, And that’s the good ones. Don’t forget about the ones that make a game of seeing just how red they can make a man’s face turn
One thing that really concerned me about Jr's story was the fact that many people saw JRs husband and it wasn't even just the medical staff. Which means it was normalized to them. Did these people not report or did they report and nobody cared? Why was he so dehumanized? Why is the communication so non-existent? JF
Yesterday I went to the orthopedist with my wife for her periodic injection in one knee. I have only accompanied her the last three times and each time the female PA had a different male MA. I've made my share of visits to urologists and have never even seen a male MA.
In a hospital there might be the need for a male MA to lift a person/limb/something, but in a medical institution/office?
In the urologist's office, there's nothing heavy to ... - I better stop here.
Yesterday the male MA followed the female PA into the smaller waiting room carrying the syringe and some gauze with the PA carrying nothing. So their point was proven for the necessity of a male.
No wonder there's no male MAs in urologist's medical institutions since they are needed in orthro institutions.
Hooray for my PCP.
Yesterday I also visited my PCP for a periodic appointment. Everything is lab results [no touch labor by the MD], so when he asked if a female PA in training was OK, it was an easy yes for me. I would have appreciated her name and college - just me. The PCP took a few minutes to explain something to her which was fine w/ me. I doubly thanked him, as I try to do every visit, for not having a female scribe since he also provides me a written report of the visit.
BJTNT
Dr B I don't know what's going on but I'm having a lot of difficulties getting on this blog. This here is approximately my 6th attempt. JF
JF, the problem must be some technical problem in your system. Your posting of 7:16 PST was the only posting I received from you or anyone so far today. If you have more experience or view to express, attempt to post them again. ..Maurice.
No. Everything is back to normal now. JF
Happy 93rd Birthday to you Dr. Bernstein! Thank you for keeping this blog running!
Misty
I wanted to encourage everyone to read this article on Voices in Bioethics: Not Just Non-Consensual Pelvic Exams: The Need for Expressed Consent for All Intimate Tasks for Elective Procedures.
Misty
Is everyone here happy with this statistical study which suggests that many medical students are looking into a administrative occupation and not one of attending directly to the ill patient?
Read and let's hear of your opinion:
https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/kevinmd/107499
..Maurice.
On the topic of informed consent for those in Ohio there is a bill before the state house, HB 89, which would require specific, informed consent before any participation by medical/nursing students performing any type of examination/procedure on patients without their specific consent. Sadly, this bill is stuck in committee and from what I have heard the medical community is fighting this. I live in an area of Ohio where there are several large hospital systems operating many locations and clinics. There are also several large universities, each of which has either a medical school and/or nursing schools. Many of the smaller clinics are associated with them and virtually all can in some way call themselves a “teaching” location. I have spoken with many people who tell me they didn’t realize “students” or “observers” would be involved with their treatment. When they ask they are told the usual, we need to train the next generation doctors or nurses, the care they will be given will be even better, etc.
The irony about the resistance to the bill is that the medical community on one hand is stating “most people don’t object” to the participation of medical/nursing students, but on the other hand they resist having that put in writing on the consent form.
Dr. Bernstein, that article doesn't surprise me. Between insurance companies dictating what will & will not be covered, MBA's in the hospital system corporate suites having created defacto assembly line medicine, and govt. pricing Medicare & Medicaid below the actual cost of providing services, it is no wonder that medical students are looking at the alternatives.
Do you all think that something is missing in the description of the knowledge, understanding and behavior of students prior to desired entry into medical school? Errors in pre-med education and selection may be a major factor in attempting to explain the issues described on this blog thread.
Here is the link to the American Association of Medical Colleges:
https://students-residents.aamc.org/real-stories-demonstrating-premed-competencies/premed-competencies-entering-medical-students
Read and reply here what you think.
..Maurice.
p.s.-Maybe the problem is "before" and not "after"
Dr. Bernstein, I read that article and while the list seems rather comprehensive on the surface, there is no mention of anything to do with patient privacy or gender. I suppose you could read such things into it but that would be forcing what we want their words to mean vs what they are actually saying, or not saying. As has been stated before, much of the problem is definitional in that what patients think privacy and dignity means is not often what staff thinks they mean.
Biker, during the many years I was teaching first and second year medical students, though I was not a formal member of our medical school Admissions Committee, I was well aware of the screening which was performed on applying students during their. in presence, interviews with Committee members as part of that application.
Amongst the various topics as part of the interview were issues dealing with how the applying student handled his or her relationship as a pre-med undergraduate with the other students and instructors. Importantly was whether the prospective medical student was domineering in their own perspective of various matters including their own personal views and actions in contrast and in conflict with others. As medical school teachers we appreciated "open" perspectives regarding the views of others. This "open" view regarding the ideas, requests and actions of others would be important if they entered medical school, became a medical student and later became active physicians.
..Maurice.
Dr. Bernstein,
Assuming the "open" filter worked to eliminate the undesirable, intransigent medical students, at what point in the student's training did he/she become the domineering physician that the Admissions Committee endeavored to eliminate? Is there some feature of that subsequent training that precipitated the empathic estrangement that many on this blog have experienced?
Regiald
I presume I am responding to misspelled Reginald in the last posting but also to all my readers here since Reginald posed a very important inquiry.
My detailed experience and knowledge applies only to the first two years of medical school 5 student group teaching in the over 3 decades of student teaching and supervision.
Every effort was made to my students to "listen to what your patient says to you as you develop the "student doctor-patient" relationship and be supportive and informative about their offered concerns.
"that one patient will be your teacher as you are alone with him or her." And the students followed my instructions. I checked on that. What happens in the 3rd and 4th years is frankly professional "hear-say" but I am sure though the student begins to follow clinical procedures which they begin to learn, my understanding is that they are more attentive to the patient's requests than not and it is really during the period out of medical school but into into internship and residency that attention to the "words" spoken by the patient with regard to how the patient is being treated and communicated with, may, with some professionals, begin to wane. That is my opinion based on my knowledge in the teaching and the profession itself.
Nobody here has ever really spoken about their experience as a patient who was interviewed and examined by the first or second year medial student or a student in the 3rd and 4th years attending within the 4 year medical school education. ..Maurice.
Dr. Bernstein and blog participants
I read the article on Expressed Consent and really like the idea. I would like full disclosure without having to research things myself. As an example, I needed to have lumbar surgery for disk problems and was curious about how I would be positioned. I thought I would move myself to the surgery table and lie down in the prone position exposing my backside. Wrong! A patient starts on their back and then they are stripped of their gown before a team rolls the patient into the prone position. This realization prompted me to ask for an all-male surgical team which was fortunately granted.
I agree with Biker’s comment on the reasons that medical students are considering administrative positions instead of interacting directly with a patient. Here is a link to another article that addresses the same issue.
https://spectator.org/feds-cant-fix-doctor-shortage-they-caused-health-care/
Concerning the discussion of pre-med competencies, it would seem that the categories of Cultural Awareness and Cultural Humility might serve to screen prospective students in regards to understanding how others feel about certain situations, .i.e. intimate examinations. Of course, a sensitivity could be developed during training even if it didn’t exist before but it seems to get marginalized somewhere along the process. I have always thought that more empathy could be attained if medical students/doctors experienced medical care themselves.
I have almost no experience with medical students involved with my care. I did not allow a female student to participate in my urological treatment that involved intimate exposure.
On a side note, my ESWL and Cystoscopy procedures were cancelled with just a couple of days’ notice. So much for mentally psyching myself for weeks preceding the date. The surgical center acted surprised that I didn’t want to reschedule.
EM
Hello EM,
How did you come by the info regarding pre-op positioning and repositioning. This info seems to be totally missing in most descriptions.
Thanks.
Reginald
PS Yes, Dr. Bernstein I posted the previous post with misspelled name.
Reginald,
My lumbar surgery was about two years ago and since I had been following this blog for several years by then, I had my guard up. I talked to several nurses at the surgery center and explained what had happened during my kidney stone procedures and that I was very modest. I specifically asked about how I would get on my stomach and they said the team would roll me over. From researching surgical procedures, I knew that a major concern for male patients in the prone position is that genitalia must be hanging free and not being crushed. Perhaps my gown was kept on but I assumed that for convenience and visual checking of genitalia, it would be removed. There is also a specialized "Jackson" table that a patient can be strapped into and the table can be rotated. It would seem that a gown could remain on when using a rotating table but somehow I doubt it. I asked for a male team because I wasn't taking any chances.
EM
Here is a topic which does relate to the title of this blog thread. The article,
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/active_shooter_planning_and_response_in_a_healthcare_setting.pdf/view
which was published in 2017 is a more and more pertinent matter in healthcare these days if we watch and listen to our current news on TV or read the current newspaper.
When it comes to a situation of an individual armed and ready to use and kill entering a clinic or hospital, what should the affected clinicians and nurses do? Should they try to run and remove themselves from their patients or should they stay and try to protect the patients and themselves? When does the maintenance of patient dignity (life) challenge the urge for a personal escape from the danger? ..Maurice.
To me and others who have been harmed by medical care, it looks like the more pertinent matter to investigate and correct is why would an armed individual feel they must enter a medical facility to kill? Rarely do we find out the motive but it is interesting when we do as we find out such as in Oklahoma the individual had been harmed and his complaints unaddressed as most complaints of medical harm goes unaddressed just as the issue of making sure to provide acceptable personal dignity standards based on the patient's perception. What is the acceptable behavior of a patient who has been medically injured be when the all systems appear to support and even complicit in covering up medical harm even going so far as setting the stage for it to happen?
JR, in answer to your question " What is the acceptable behavior of a patient who has been medically injured be when the all systems appear to support and even complicit in covering up medical harm even going so far as setting the stage for it to happen?" My response: Go get a lawyer and start from there but don't go into the clinic and hospital with a gun prepared to kill.
What had your lawyers suggested about the response to the mishandling of your husband's illness and the physicians and others personal misbehavior? ..Maurice
Hello Dr. Bernstein,
I do not find killing acceptable behavior for "injured" patients. Your lawyer response is great; however, as JR will no doubt respond, few, if any, lawyers will accept such a case. Thus, "injured" patients have little recourse but venting their frustration. Nevertheless, this venting must never involve personal injury to anyone. One injury does not justify another. Hopefully, we on the blog can make our concerns known to enough individuals to affect change. We should also realize that change sometimes comes slowly, especially in institutions. Our task is to make every effort to let our concerns be know to as many health care individuals as possible.
I wish you a happy Hanukkah.
Take care.
Reginald
Dr. B.,
Your answer shows me you don't really grasp how difficult it is for a harmed patient to get justice. "Get a lawyer" is a flippant answer when it doesn't work like that. I know people who have been harmed and who have contacted 100s and 100s of lawyers plus every known agency and get nowhere. Nowhere is also the standard letter that some (very few) will respond with saying in essence: Too bad but we are not sad for your injury.
Perhaps you didn't read my last sentence: "...all systems appear to support and even complicit in covering up medical harm even going so far as setting the stage for it to happen?" Lawyers are part of the problem. Excuses we heard was that he didn't die so therefore the money wasn't there for them, it wasn't malpractice but a criminal case and malpractice insurance doesn't cover intentional harm, you have a case but not interested as it would take too much time and be too expensive for the payout, etc. Lawyers only take so many cases on contingency and if you try to pursue it by paying them, the attorney will most likely bankrupt you as several ethical attorneys told us. I also know of a woman in CA who is paying and if she accepts the settlement offered, she will be $100,000 in debt. So yes, I see how violence happens. I didn't say it is the answer but I do believe the answer is first to make sure harm is not happening to patients and that if it does, make sure the system isn't biased against the patient by setting up obstacles that cannot be overcome in pursuing justice.
Yes, we were told he had a case on several points but none wanted it as they said the hospital was too aggressive and would fight any positive ruling for us to the end and we would end up with nothing. We weren't after money but they were. We simply wanted justice. Several attorneys were in ligation with the hospital and said if they knew then what they knew now, they would have turned down the case. It really stinks when you have been harmed and the legal system acknowledges you have been harmed but does nothing as well as several agencies that are supposed to protect patients.
Some say they never wish certain heinous events upon their worst enemies but I am not one of those. Medical harm is a very traumatic event that cannot be forgotten. However, I think that using a car, a gun , a knife, etc. as a means for justice is not the right thing. There is such a thing as karma but some people are not strong to survive medical harm as it is such an intense betrayal. So it all goes back to the medical community doing all it can not to harm patients and to truthfully acknowledge and work with a patient that has been harmed. Also, the govt along with along regulatory agencies need to make sure they properly address patient harm in order not to give the excuse for some to harm those who harm them.
There has been much written abt patients who harmed medical providers but where is all the articles abt medical providers who harm patients?
In my experience you can’t even get a lawyer to take your case unless it is something as blatant as amputating the wrong leg. Believe me I tried. Matters of the heart and emotional damages they inflict are not on anyone’s radar screen.
Damages done to the patients on an emotional level are completely left to the patient to bear on their own.
There is never an excuse for violence but better care needs to be taken when breaking a person emotionally. Many times people that have suffered under the care of a medical facility silently end their own lives and except for those that are close to them no one ever hears about it and everything continues down the same path.
I was told when I reached out to patient relations that they would use my experiences as a teaching opportunity or something to that effect . Years have passed and nothing has changed . I honestly believe things have gotten worse as I watch the decline of the medical industry from patient centered to one of monetary gains . There are a lot of forces at play in all of this and most of everyone here knows what they are, the frustration in all of this is feeling helpless about a solution in an industry that has perfected the art of smoke and mirrors and a more recent term known as gaslighting
I actually pray for all those that enter into the mysterious world of medicine . I pray that they have a good experience with their interactions of the people that care for them and I pray that no one ever feels the need to reciprocate bad medical treatment with violence . That is always a bad answer and solves nothing
JR et al: Have you thought of the developing possibility that in the upcoming future of medicine all patients themselves or family members in charge of patient could use artificial intelligence itself by words and later mechanical-procedural-surgical skills manage all clinical conditions in both children and adults? No medical school, no interns, no residents, no physicians to lead to mal-behavior or malpractice.
We are not there yet but as a starter read the following:
https://www.health.org.uk/publications/long-reads/what-do-technology-and-ai-mean-for-the-future-of-work-in-health-care
No humans to blame.. to attack.. only advanced technology. Or will we always need some human to blame for misbehavior towards the patient? Something about the future of medicine that may be starting right now. ..Maurice.
Hello Dr. Bernstein,
Would you comment on the ethics of non-disclosure of all aspects of a medical procedure. Others posters have commented on the difficulty of obtaining information regarding their procedure - Will I be totally naked during XYZ, how will I be prepped, etc.? Why aren't there readily accessible videos showing prep, procedure and post-op? Is it ethical to not have available all aspects of the procedure that the patient will undergo? Is this tantamount to the patient not being totally informed? I understand that some people may say, "Just do it. I don't want to know the details." Nevertheless, shouldn't the patient have the option of knowing every step of the procedure if he/she so desires? Here I not referring to descriptions like, "You'll be prepped, anesthetized and taken to post-op after the procedure". Since there is a dearth of information publicly available, one cannot but assume that this information is being purposely withheld. If this is the case, I'm questioning the ethics of withholding this information.
Thanks for comments.
Reginald
Reginald, you asked a most proper and for all patients undergoing a procedure an essential question. The answer is that the physician performing the procedure must "sit down with the patient or maintain conversation by phone if that is location the procedure introduction." And the conversation should be the details of what is to be done, how it is being done and what happens after the procedure. In addition, the physician must take the time for the patient to ask specific questions about "before, during and after" which had not been previously described. It is only then that any "informed consent" can be said to have occurred. This personal and necessary communication between physician and patient is absolutely essential and if the patient is in a clinical condition where this back and forth communication is not possible such as in an ultra clinical emergency, the procedure is first performed and then detailed to the patient on recovery. If the patient, unresponsive, has a surrogate present, the surrogate should be made aware and responded to as if the surrogate was the patient. Those are the ethical and clinical rules. Reginald thanks for asking. ..Maurice.
I learned a classic lesson: Be careful what you ask for. For my annual cystoscopy I have had for several years a particular male nurse do the prep, and before that there had been two other male nurses that had prepped me. Each time upon check-in I would remind the clerk that I wanted a male nurse for the prep and she would add a note to my slip that the nurses used when as they came out to bring patients back to the examination rooms. There was never any push back or attitude from anyone over my requests.
So I just had my annual cystoscopy and made my usual request. Being we were in the midst of a snowstorm, I left for the hospital earlier than normal, not knowing what the conditions would be at higher elevations and as I wound my way through the mountains. Conditions proved to be good (we know how to handle snow up here) and I arrived early. That and my doctor running late caused me to have lots of observation time as other patients came and went. There were 4 female nurses calling patients back and while I knew nothing of any of them, 3 of them I thought to myself "no way" but for reasons I can't articulate I just sensed I could tolerate the 4th one if I had to.
So what happens? That 4th nurse calls me back and tells me that the male nurse that I had in recent years recently left and they didn't have a male nurse on staff, but that they had a male floater helping them who would come in and do my prep. She did my consent form, gave me the cipro, had me change into the gown (in private) and give the usual urine sample, then left. My gut reaction just watching her call patients back had been correct. I was very comfortable with her, though I can't articulate why, and almost said she could just do the prep, but I thought no, she'd already made arrangements to meet my request and so best I just go with thew flow.
In comes the male floater and he tells me he's seen cystoscopy prep done and is sure he can do it. Maybe technically yes, but it turned out not very well. I found myself wishing I had had her do it instead. He then leaves (after fully covering me), and then in comes the doctor and that female RN as his assistant. The male nurse had fulfilled my request literally. He did the prep and only the prep. So she saw me anyway. Unlike other female nurses she didn't hover and stare and I found myself totally comfortable with her presence. My initial gut reaction while in the waiting room was correct. Lesson learned.
Hello Dr. Bernstein,
Thank you for your comments. It would be interesting to see if any of the other posters have been so thoroughly informed before their procedures. I have never had such information given to me before any medical procedure. It's usually, "Don't worry. We'll take care of it."
Take care.
Reginald
Reginald, what I wrote about is with respect to scheduled, non-emergent surgery or other procedure. Emergency surgery (acute life-risk event), the details of the procedure should be discussed by the surgeon to the patient afterwards during recovery. Other than emergency, new or routine procedures should be approved after the surgeon-patient satisfactory discussion. ..Maurice.
Dr. B., to answer your question about AI, it is only as good as the program and who does the programming?--a human. I can see many pitfalls especially if a camera is involved as who has access to the pics/video? Not only this but there is an uptick in hacking such as the recent hacking of a hospital system that allowed the nude pics of cancer patients to be posted on the Internet. Also, in answer to your informed consent post, unless the ER patient is bleeding out or will die within seconds, there is time for true informed consent. States like Indiana does say this in their laws governing patient consent. If the patient is not able then there is a chain they supposedly must follow.
Reginald, although my husband entered through ER, apparently his procedure that he did not consent to was not truly emergent as it literally laid for 90 minutes before anything was done. They had plenty of time to talk to him and I about his options and to gain consent but they did not. In everything since that time, we have done our research and know what questions to ask because they are not forthcoming. We also record all conversations so we have proof if they are just flat out lying to us as they did during his ER encounter. Indiana is a one party aware state of recording so this is allowable. We have various recording devices that we employ so we have multiple solutions. It is a shame that it has come to this but we have no trust for the system to be honest.
Dr. B., what do you think abt the many articles discussing how doctors feel they are entitled to be not truthful with patients over certain matters? For instance, https://medicine.missouri.edu/centers-institutes-labs/health-ethics/faq/truth-telling and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22323169/ ?
Hello JR,
Is it possible for you to post the prepared questions that you mentioned in your recent post? Knowing the right questions is extremely important. If they're too lengthy to post here, maybe you can post them on your webpage. Let us know where we can find them.
I think this will help all of us in our medical encounters.
Thanks.
Reginald
Hello again JR,
I read both of the articles that you referenced. The U of Missouri article was nuanced; but, as a School of Medicine, I expected a concluding recommendation statement. That is, what does the author or U of M consider truthful statements from their personnel. The PubMed article is over a decade old. It would be nice to know what a more recent survey would reveal.
In my recent post to Dr. Bernstein, I mentioned that the dearth of readily available videos of medical procedures is "interesting". In our extremely "open" society, where everything seems accessible, where are the readily available medical procedure videos. Many large hospitals have professional videos showing a patient entering the hospital, consultation, smiling in bed before the procedure and resting after the procedure - a Hollywood-style production. None show the shaving, prepping, exposure, etc. that really occurs. Where are these videos which would allow patients to really know what's going to happen to them? Why the lack of knowledge from "professionals" who really want to give the patient "truthful" informed consent? One is left to believe that information is being withheld. This leads to the subsequent question Why is this information being withheld? I find it incredulous that the broader society (outside our small circle of posters) doesn't seem to care that health care controls them and withholds information from them.
Take care.
Reginald
Reginald your absolutely correct about what is out there that you are able to view as far as procedures go because they control the narrative of what is released from the surgical arena. I have personally tried to see if a complete and accurate video exists and to my knowledge it doesn’t. I was actually supplied with a link in the big folder I was given by my surgeon’s office of a video that would show me what to expect from beginning to end. It was filled with omissions which is the same as a lie . I let their patient relations know that their video was extremely deceptive and they said they would review and make necessary changes. Nearly 5 years later the same video is being promoted to the patients as an accurate representation of what to expect. If they don’t understand why they suffer from a lack of trust from their patients, that is just one of many I have experienced
Then you have a very large population of patients that request to be given versed as soon as possible and ask not to be given details because they don’t want to know! I have people in my own family that feel that way and I tell them you’re not always knocked out for everything and then it becomes an ambushing because they weren’t going to tell you anyway. It’s to late for me I learned the hard way and can never unlearn what they cruelly taught me
Hello,
Maybe. when everyone knows all aspects of a procedure, deviations from those procedures will be readily apparent. Possibly, this is one reason the medical field withholds every detail. Ensuing lawsuits might be another reason. Below is the URL of a UK article describing a seasoned nurse who drugged her patients to keep them quite, for fun and to exact retribution towards the patients' family members. Please remember, however, she is a professional.
https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/hospital/prison-sentence-for-blackpool-nurse-who-drugged-patients-14-12-2023/?eea=*EEA*&eea=YlRvNVN4cEx6eDFhVy9iZGN6VWdndnhac1hHYkhhSDlsSGtsNUE0eXE1WT0%3D&utm_source=acs&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CONE_NT_EDI_REG_Daily_14122023&deliveryName=DM198024
Take care and stay out of that UK stroke ward.
Reginald
Biker,
In response to your most recent post about your cystoscope experience, I would have had a different reaction than you did. By requesting a male to do the prep, you put them on notice that you were not comfortable with female exposure. Common sense should have dictated that having a female during the procedure is a Bad Idea. We both know (from personal experience) that once the prep is done there is no further need for anyone to assist the doctor for the procedure. Their response by bringing in the female to assist was abject stupidity, profound disrespect, retaliation, or some combination of all three. Faced with the same situation, I would have cancelled the procedure, walked out, and headed straight for the manager's office.
If you were comfortable with what happened to you, then that's fine for you. However, that would not have been fine with me.
58flyer
I was wondering the same thing? What would be the point of having a male do the prep and then allow a female to assist? It completely invalidates the whole reason for the original request. At also shows the tone deafness of the facility.
58flyer, for the past several days I have been trying to process my reaction to the cystoscopy prep myself. All I have ever experienced with this urology practice is respect and professionalism, and as such I give them the benefit of the doubt that there was no ill intent in how things unfolded.
The best I can make sense of it is either the female RN interpreted my "male RN prep me" request was that it somehow pertained only to the physical handling of my penis, or alternatively the doctor didn't want the "floater RN" to be assisting him, not that there is much of any assisting to do once the prep is complete. The fact that the male RN hadn't done a cystoscopy prep before and was kind of fumbling doing so might lend credence to that alternative. It wasn't his fault given his inexperience but I was a bit uncomfortable with his fumbling and with being touched more than an experienced RN would have done.
I didn't say anything when the female RN came into the room with the doctor because something about her made me comfortable with her presence. I had noted in my 1st post that there were 3 other females taking patients back to the exam/procedure rooms. During my corporate career, something that contributed to my success was that I could "read" people. As pertains to those other 3, my read was that while they surely were trained in the technical aspects of their job and to maintain a proper gameface in front of the patient, my read was that their level of maturity was that male patient exposure was still a benefit of the job rather than it being a feature of no particular interest.
As I sat in the waiting area for a couple hours, that 4th RN made a different impression. She exuded confidence and maturity and never once did I catch her expressing any interest in anyone other than the patient she had come for. I had caught a couple of the others staring at me. When she did take me back to the procedure room, she explained that the male RN I had in recent years had left and that the only male available to do my prep was a floater that she'd send in as soon as she did the preliminaries with me. My "read" of her based on my earlier observations proved correct and I found myself very comfortable with her. There was no offense taken by my having asked for a male to do the prep, and I knew my exposure would not have been of any particular interest to her. Thus when she came back with the doctor, though it surprised me, it didn't upset me. I will add that she didn't hover or stare during the procedure. My experience at the prior practice was that the female RN's maintained eye contact with my penis throughout the procedure.
All that said, I am still thinking it all through as to why I was comfortable with this one RN when my usual mode of operation is avoidance when it is an option, and embarrassment when it isn't.
Reginald,
Sorry it took so long to get back with you. We ask always seek answers to the 4 w's and 1 h: who, what, when, why, and how all must be answered. In doing this we found out that the hospital system where my husband's cardiologist is the head they don't allow them to have anyone with them during an exercise EKG bc the reason was funny as they said it protected other patient's privacy. This is the same practice that the door of where they do the testing opens directly into the the cardiology waiting room and you can clearly see at least 2 curtained off areas where the testing is performed. I have seen this multiple times as they generally do not close the curtains. This is also the same practice that has called patients by entire name and asked questions basically so the whole waiting room knows the patient's personal information like one older lady who I knew was scheduled for tests A, B, C, etc. at what times and where and for what. Guarding patient privacy certainly means something different medical providers than what is defined in govern. regulations and to the a savvy patient. I then called around until I found a hospital system that didn't have an issue with him having his "advocate" present. We knew ahead of time who would do the test and we already knew why. We asked what their procedure was in case of an emergency. We recorded everything. We had done the research and knew the EKG would show us certain info and we needed that info. While questions you might need to ask would differ from ours, you should always know the 4 w's and the 1 h such as how much exposure is needed and then who will be present and for what is their importance to your care not their learning experience.
Biker, What I found interesting is that most rapist do not find their victims either attractive or even sexy as sexual assault is a crime of power and control hence why 80 year old women get raped by some 20 yr old man. I would take the stand that all could be sexual predators even ones of my gender.
I also do not believe their position such as being a MD makes them "entitled" to my naked body as far too many doctors are guilty of sexual assault. People in all walks of life commit crimes or have some type of bias or even mental illness.
Hello JR,
Thanks for your response. Knowledge is power.
Take care.
Reginald
If any of my readers here think that they are the only patients who get into clinical situations interacting with doctors and nurses, but consider physicians themselves as patients themselves, find living with a newly discovered personal medical diagnostic problem and their reactions to clinicians who are diagnosing another physician may be just as challenging as you all have described, being non-physicians.
With this introduction to the issue, take a look of a personal discussion in the current issue of the New England Journal of Medicine and some reader responses. Go to the following link and read as much as you can:
amanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2812202
Physicians, themselves as patients, may be experiencing the very same as they sit on the opposite side of their physician or nurses "desk".
..Maurice.
LAST ADDRESS FOR JOURNAL OF AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION WAS INCORRECT. HERE IS THE CORRECT ADDRESS:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2812202
..Maurice.
Hello Dr. Bernstein,
Dr. Huson had the terrible experience that most of us have had. Fortunately, she was able to post her experience on JAMA. We poor peons do not have a medical journal that will publish our concerns. Hopefully, she will affect the change that will also improve our medical experience - a change that we, thus far, have been unable to experience for ourselves.
Reginald
This is long, so I will do it in 2 parts.
Part 1:
Maurice,
A belated happy birthday and many more.
Yes, I am back. I read this latest volume and need to catch up on past volumes. I will start off first with Misty's article: in the past I have said that simply saying that under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), I am requesting the accommodation of an all male care team (or whatever), and by federal law you MUST be accommodated. You also do NOT have to disclose what your disability is and you do NOT have to prove that you have a disability. We assume that it is PTSD based on the stories here...
I have been teaching patients this for years and they are getting accommodated. When they don't, I show them how to file a complaint with the Joint Commission, and the facility gets an unwanted rectal exam. In my most recent victory, the day the Joint Commission contacted a facility (where a person I was helping had one of these experiences),the head of the department had to call everyone in that night for (re)training. # residents now have a disciplinary action as part of their permanent record.
I wanted to go after licenses next, but the patient did not want to. She was emotionally fatigued from having to repeatedly tell her story. This is how you bring about change. Another situation, the patient was a member of the LGBT community, and along with the Joint Commission complaint, I made a complaint to the Human Rights Campaign (on behalf of the patient). After the Joint Commission, they had to answer to the HRC because they had a high rating in the Healthcare Equality Index (HEI).
After some research I found that a non-profit that is very vocal about DEI and ESG, had made a $100 million grant to the institution.A few letters were sent to the non-profit's board, and I am sure that the facility had to answer a third round of questions.
Now let me offer some healing for those dealing with trauma. In recent years, there have been talks about using psychedelics for trauma therapy. I have been looking into this. Again, as with any thinking that goes against (as JR puts it) the medical mafia's narrative, it is dismissed. A close friend tried this. It has had some very noticeable results. I tried it and I made progress.
I avoid healthcare and my worst nightmare is what others have talked about in this volume: cystoscopy. I have one coming up, and am actually going through with it. I will need to do some more therapy afterwards. I have educated myself on this therapy, and I can say that it actually does work. There are caveats, but I won't go into them.
I do have a male doctor, who is old school. The practice has a male nurse/MA/etc. since the majority of patients are men. I am comfortable with this doc. He said that he can talk me through the procedure. He knows. I did some of my "talking control" maneuvers to assert my control; like passing on the DRE.
End part 1
— Banterings
Part 2
I made another break through (a couple years ago) with dealing with my trauma and in helping others with their trauma. It is just now that I fully understand the ramifications and I am going share this with all of you. It is dealing with anger. I was abused by healthcare providers and I had anger. After the incident in 2018 I gave up on healthcare. I did not see providers as human any more. This allowed most of my anger to dissipate.
I had been contacted by a provider whose institution updated their policies based on my writings. They lamented how these new policies made their lives so much more difficult and the fatigue, burnout, etc. They said that the incremental damage was greater than if I killed 20 healthcare workers (also discussed in this volume). They finished with "I hope you enjoy the pain and suffering that you caused. A part of me, that hurt child inside wanted to enjoy it, but I could not. I realized that I no longer saw them as human.
Just as we discussed in earlier volumes about dehumanization, I did it to providers so that I could get through encounters. It bothers me because I am not like that. I have compassion for my fellow man. So that leads me back to anger. Anger is not an emotion, it is a reaction, a behavior. When one expresses anger, what they are expressing is hurt and fear.
So I find myself returning to some old behaviors prior to my most recent healing. I have been obsessing about the upcoming procedure. Reading everything about it, helping injured people write complaints to institutions about their policies and treatment, and of course finding my way back here.
— Banterings
Banterings, welcome back to our blog topic.
You were last here in April 12th Volume 125.
I am always pleased to read how you, personally, are attempting to be "therapeutic" to other patients beyond yourself. ..Maurice.
Archie,
Glad to see you back, my friend.
Yes, I agree that anger is a reaction. In a song by Meatloaf, it describes for me the negative feelings I have for the medical mafia, "...it runs silently, angry and deep." Even though I was not the actual victim of the heinous medical harm that occurred--my husband was--I saw the devastation it causes and I also experience fallout from it. I will never forget his raw reaction as that is something I cannot unsee. I had my own encounter in my childhood which this brought to the surface and made me realize that is why I have always maintained control of my body in medical settings or else I do not participate in medical encounters. From those who have not experienced medical harm trauma, they do not understand how deep the injury is. It is not about a nurse seeing your body part but more about surrendering control of your already harmed body and soul over to someone who is part of the system who harmed you.
Archie, you are such a valuable teacher to us in the matter of patient dignity. We are lucky to have someone like you helping us. I am forever grateful you helped me and my husband.
I am a self described "victim" of . Multiple sexual misconduct incidents, involving first a male physician, who coerced me into my first & LAST EVER prostate exam.
I have had only two minor genital problems. One, from a totally unnecessary surgery, an inguinal scar that's caused me me much physical pain. . Subsequently, I NEVER go for routine physicals, I handle matters a la carte. In 99% of my doctor visits I'm fully clothed. But if there's any potential for exposing my intimate parts, lurking behind the door is a female staff member having nothing to do with my treatment, ppised to ambush me -- & not even functioning as a designated chaperone. In 33 years I've catalogued 8 weird incidents involving females. (Though I must say, same gender assistant are no comfort to me. How about NO assistants unless their actually doing something useful).
What really gets me now is that attempts to preemptively circumvent theses incidents backfire in getting me banned from most places.
Aftee getting a pain referral at a famous Southern California teaching institution, I contacted 'Patient Experience' to set reasonable & same parameters:
1) no chaperone, or they must go behind a curtain or screen
2) treatment of my genital pain will not be a spectator sport for med students.
3) treatment of my genital pain will not be a spectator sport for ancillary staff, as they are only welcome in the event of a treatment that requires a third or fourth hand for assistance.
4) I will not remove underwear & expose intimate body parts for non-intimate procedures such as back epidurals, or meniscus repair.
Patient Experience formally wrote back that they cancelled my appointment, while elaborating, ALL surgical procedures such as epidurals (really just injections) are done fully nude with just a gown on for "sterilization" purposes. That chaperones usually view everything! I would have to submit to nudity with any student or any assistant present without hesitation, & that I was preemptively banned me from the orthopedic & pain clinics.
This institution is infamous for what an investigatory commission described "fostering a complicit culture of sexual abuse" going up the chain of command right up to University Regents.
So, I came to this group to report that patient experience told me that I will (in effect) sexually bow down to physician authority & undress at the blink of an eye or not get treatment! The ultimate kick in my teeth came from this group, when I vaguely hinted at the location, my posts were censored for fear of defamation suits. So the one place where my plaintiff words could be heard, I was rebuked.
Mr Bernstein (another doctor, one of them!) personally fearing defamation suits, so he suppressed THE GODDAMN TRUTH! Easy fix! Disclaimers stating the views expressed hear aren't those if the editor!
Now I ask this group, what if this was 2016, & a student health victim got in this site & mentioned James Heaps BY NAME as the violator to warm people! What would've happened. Censorship, no warning, & ultimately more victimization. This group is a paper tiger & as much a facilitator of abuse as any "chaperone"
Tc
How do you get the ADA to do their job? The DFEH hasn't pursued many labor violations since 2000,even in the Obama administration. How do theses enforce theoretical rules you alluded to without a lawyer?
TC
Another observation (if I'm not censored as usual alluding to cases that have high profile convictions & law suits) on the subject of chaperones. The basis of nearly all of the Jane Doe vs UC Regents suits deal with the a tual presence of chaperones. Ultimately they're complicity impeded justice.
Think about it. Doctors have such a God-like status that when another doctor narcs them out, they're careers are ruined, as was the case with OB/GYN Kelly Stechler at U. Minnesota. To my knowledge she's unemployed & will remain so.
TC, if this was you (unidentified in the laat posting) as I have said many times on this blog thread, when I started this topic years and years ago, I thought virtually all the writers were together in a small group of " patients "hurt" by the behavior of their physicians and nurses. As the years and postings moved on, I realized that this was the concern of a large group and their experiences should be strongly considered and attended to by the medical profession. I still hold this need for recognition of misbehaviors in the medical profession. ..Maurice.
Well, no tears shed by me for the justice that wronged patients exact themselves. Pacifism only makes better victims of us all. Thomas Hobbes nailed it on the head. Fear of consequences is the only governing force protected Ng us from evil. And "medical power trip" is the definition of evil & it is endemic. I didn't not ever believe the "I'm in the business to help people. It's only the job security & POWER of sexually humiliating decent people theiractual motivation.
TC
Yes it's TC. Gee whiz, this time you didn't censor my post, thanks. But a year ago, you refused to post, & ditto for another incident in which I had planned to have easy bilateral meniscus surgery, & they surreptitiously planned an overnight stay.. & vaguely hinted at the location, not naming specific names & you refused to ok the post.
And yes, the last reference to Hobbes, an architect of conservative philosophy, was mine. I'm a New Deal liberal by the way. But the read n why the bad guys have taken everything away & rolled back the advances of the 20th century is we've underestimated their evil, & not grasped this primal tenet of humanity. If the potential for abuse even exists, abuse invariably happens. We as patients have been bringing knives to the proverbial gun fights that medical people waged in us, from square one.
How it gets to the point where people are so weak & gullible that they blindly accept things such as Ivy league posture photos. Nude public school swimming for boys only speaks volumes for my assertion that people are stupid & sheep.
Sexual abuse has been endemically & complicity institutionalized & in all our society: in religion, medical teaching institutions, jails, prisons, etc. It is accepted, & part of the conservative mindset to keep people down.
I also believe that forced institutionalized nudity trickles down to the innocent. For example, the bus driver in his (or her) DOT physical forced to have his penis (or vagina) examined, the urethra swabbed for "infectious discharge" , & not to mention the observed supervised drug test, will later think nothing of barging into his daughter's room while she's changing her bra. Abuse, if it's not passed back, is passed on.
I have to hold myself mildly responsible for complicity when in my junior high football physicals I let the perv physician force me to turn my head & cough. This after he failed to percuss my abdomen & could have sent me in the football field with a ruptured spleen. I'm warned, "stop sexualizing the whole profession's, but what am I supposed to think other than those private parts are far more interesting to a doctor, even though scrotal hernias are non life threatening, & so damn rare I've never met a man that admits to having one.
My advise to any kid being bullied into that phase of a " participation physical" is to spit in the damn pussy's face. As the bumper stickers used to read: DINT QUESTION AUTHORITY, DEFY IT.
No hyperbole, authority is corrupt & should be called out as such
TC, you and the other contributors posting here can express their views of how their illness has been treated professionally and what they had expected with regard to their contact as a patient. What I didn't want posted was naming names (physician, nurses, clinics or hospital) where those written about and their behaviors and acts were not already in newspaper public view. Yes, the USC professional misbehaviors or criminal cases have been well recorded newswise and certainly can be noted on this blog posting. TC thanks for your return. ..Maurice. p.s.-Christmas greetings to all.
I also want to reply to the notion that somehow we are protected by the ADA. 11/03/22, weI had agreed & agreed to having bilateral meniscus tears repaired both at once. (No recovery problems whatsoever when my right knee was scoped in '99, & w/no joint inflammation by then, no recovery anticipate
Negotiations for the scheduled surgery stalled because they flat out refused to give a time, just a date. It made transportation impossible. It could not be arranged with just 24 hours notice.
My bridges are burned, & I'm a very disliked & feared individual (because I've been so abused by everyone) & my only transportation option was a Reach Out senior program. They needed definitive times.
The negotiations stalled & the surgery scheduler was needlessly concerned about my solitary living arrangements age (66, but still muscular & flexible, but with added body fat because of age related decreased hydration levels ) she stated she must talk to the doctor & see what HE wants. I replied, NO, WE already decided. Don't plant any seeds in his mind.
11/07/22 she told me new plan , I'd have to let her take care of everything. A red flag, on MyChart The surgical venue had been changed from an ancillary surgical outlet to the main medical center. Why? They had gone behind my back to arrange an overnight visit. No regard for how I feel about putting myself in the dominion of people I despise. No regard for how much I cannot tolerate being next to a creep that snores, no regard for how I feel about the feminizing sissy gowns, & being where bad people can barge into my room w/o knocking.
Furthermore , outpatient you go, put on the degrading gown, keep the underwear on (as the doc agreed to) IV anesthetic & fluids only for the duration of the surgery, real clothes back on, & disposal of the sissy gowns.
Impatient? The IV arbitrarily stays in, & with fluids going in one body part, a risk of waking up sans underwear with a catheter shoved up my urethra for hospital expedience.
The director of the orthopedics department confirmed that the catheterization was formally mandatory, but probably less of a chance these day. (A self incriminating confirmation in admitting the arbitrary intrusive practice is no longer deemed necessary..
But I went apeshit. I filed a federal
age discrimination, religious discrimination (prudishly Christian upbringing)ADA failure tp accommodate modesty concerns of a medical sex abuse victim) etc, & my complaints were deemed "unsubstantial"
The records on my chart were deliberately altered & lied about. That first 11/03/22 visit alluded to no transportation & my agreement to stay overnight. (No transportation issue mentioned to the doctor. The 11/07/22 "change of surgercal venue in MyChart was changed to something trivial & meaningless.
Our government is no " pro+little guy anymore. ADA & such is considered a nuisance to big business.
In a world in which women prisoners are stripped naked, held in that state for hours for cross gender training exercised, then forced to open up their vaginas & remove tampons while called filthy bitches, what do you expect? Conservative courts uphold those "training exercised as legit
Again. People are born evil & life's no goid
If the last posting was TC or whoever, please identify with your pseudonym. It is more meaningful to all of us to understand who has taken the time and thought to communicate on this blog thread and to whom we can specifically respond to you on this blog. ..Maurice.
Yes it's TC. I glanced at t a few posts alluding to efforts to pass legislation to protect anesthetized patients from what's essentially, non consensual FINGER FUCKING -- to be direct & blunt
But it's disturbing to witness apologists here those in this site trying to remain outwardly "objective" in pointing out so called "bad apples" that don't represen all providers.
The assertion that patients don't mind is yet another medical lie. If so, why do they have to be asleep? It's a well documented fact that the practice came about from lack of patient consent in the first place -- no not just another part of the body for 3rd year clerkship students. Another violation used there, is the attempted to bully patients into these procedures but alluding to vaguely worded hospital entrance consent forms that in no way commit them. Right there, a major ethical violation no one cares about or talks about. That is still rape by coercion & enough to condemn the purpetrators to the fate of Larry Nassar
For Christ sake this is rape!, & the only thing protecting the decent amount us from them is the law. No medical peer I intervention, or pushback except from the American Gynecology Association. If we all need to cower behind the skirts of the justice system to circumvent our sacred person's from violation, what more self incriminating evidence do you need of the absolute lack of a moral compass among physicians? Good doctors
I can only draw an analogy to the Catholic church. Are ALL priests, bishops , cardinals, poes child molesters? No, but many are. But more importantly, are they, their nuns, & most associated with the church guilty of complicity, perpetuation & cover up before, during & after the fact? Yes. To the extent their institution is beyond redemption, unworthy, &
In the view of decent, enlightened, intellectuals, they have totally lost credibility!
TC, maybe you would be the perfect participant for JR at her JR @rights4patients
various programs. You seem to have the equivalent anger compared to her family experiences with the medical profession.
JR, what do you think after reading TC's experiences? ..Maurice.
TC,
File a complaint with the Joint Commission here:
Your concern is that the facility did not accommodate your disability. As a survivor of repeated abuse by healthcare providers (I am assuming that you have PTSD, anxiety, depression) and those are a covered conditions. You do not have to tell them what the condition is or even prove that you have it.
You asked for an accommodation, they refused and dismissed you as a patient (that is retaliation).
If you feel that you have been discriminated against by a place of public accommodation, then you may file a complaint with the U.S. Department of Justice here:
In the future, simply say "I am requesting the accommodation of an all male care team (or whatever you want). Also do not bring up the accommodations until 2 days before the appointment. AMBUSH THEM.
— Banterings
TC here again. I think we already crossed paths on Facebook. Bottom left me is there's no fixing corruption, & these discussions go nowhere.
I do have to say that it seems that I'm out of the woods now, in that I have a good PCP (though I'm always betrayed when complacent about ANY human interaction, personal or professional).
I also might have a good pain doctor -- though the verdicts not yet in on her. I did try to have an epidural with her, & thankfully I was fully clothed. (Sanity prevailed there). If the inguinal pain doesn't go away from the cortisone at L2 (& it won't) she will give me an ultrasound assisted nerve block. That will entail exposing myself, & there's some worry of the potential of a passive, assistant present, not lending a useful third hand to the procedure.
At my first visit, I handed a synopsis of my present medical history including some lipservice to modesty & a request not to let matters degenerate into a spectator sport. She related to the receptionist that maybe one of her male colleagues would be better. I had already seen him at another facility & he was an inept jerk, who doesn't guide his blocks with ultrasound anyway.
So I got the impression she works alone with patients anyway. No unnecessary frontal urology exam (as I had received from the last pain doctor, & from NO other of the 4 pain docs I previously saw) just a cursory clothes on, neurology exam, at which point I volunteered to let her peek at the scar. I tugged the left front of my pants down a couple inches, & she observed the cosmetic results were better than she anticipated. (Not good enough, as the operation was needless.)
So next step is waiting interminably for the appointment, & even though ultrasound guided blocks can be done with a transducer in one hand, syringe in the other, I'm anticipating she might feel legitimately intimidated by the notion of being alone with me for an intimate procedure, & I might have to respect that. I hope she doesn't give a lame rationalization for needlessly having an assistant. It's the condescension behind medical lies I hate most.
This will be the last "intimate" exam or procedure ever done on me. No medical person will see those areas until my autopsy. Should this procedure fail, or should another genital or gastrointestinal malady crop up, I will) shorten that coroner's visit interval in a heartbeat. I hate medical people that much.
These futile meanderings are a PTSD response to my medical travails two years ago. I can feel my prostate growing, mostly away from my bladder, but I've had some urinary discomfort that I've kept hidden from my providers out of scorn, no embarrassment.
The fix was easy, I figured it out. My blood pressures getting up there, so how about prescribing Cardura for the hypertension, & making the urinary benefits of the alpha blocker incidental. You guys wouldn't believe the pushback I got, even though I wrote them disclaimers declining any & all cancer screening. (I'm 67 & who the hell wants to live to 90, or even 80 unless your a family guy.)
After one arrogant physician snuck in a PSA & I fired her, the next PA wrote in my records that she'd discontinue my Cardura in 6 months to turn over my treatment to a urologist, which I had ready adamantly told her I'll NEVER see again. The sense of powerless I felt was akin to that of being 5 years old knowing the inevitability of my pediatrician pulling my pants down upon arrival.
I fought back, & each time got banned from each facility, everyone within a 20 mile radius. Finally I struck gold & found a female physician who's behind me, & not with a gloved, lubricated finger.
The issues I had concerning getting bilateral meniscus surgery are absolutely surreal, unresolved & unforgivable. Again, last surgery ever for me , as I will not allow the practice of seeing medical providers morph into a lifestyle or avocation. Growing old happens to other people, as I really don't have to.
TC
Sorry for over posting here (will not be a habit) I'm glad you felt comfortable with that female nurse, but what perturbs some of us here is the doctor gratuitously coming in with a nurse. There's a medical term for that: ambush. The issue (for me) is that the doctor didn't care enough to ask, & just as easily could've come in with any of those three other female nurses you would have been mortified to deal with in your state of vulnerability. Anyway you look at this, your request wasn't respected, the doctor was running the show not you, even though it was on your dime.
An inquiry, you wrote of nurses staring at your penis & hovering. Do you think any of them are voyeuristic? Voyeurism is a trait that's far more attributable to men's hardwiring, & it's commonly assumed a very rare trait among women.
I only ask this because I can't understand how it is that so few times I put myself in a position where I'm exposed to anyone. The female aggressiveness I've encountered is staggering. One incident of an allergy MA violently yanking down my running shorts in a heated argument over 1cc of celestone going in the arm or butt. Another case of a bitchy neurologist from India yanking down my run ing shorts (w/o warning or permission) during an EMG. Several ambushes by ancillary staff (female) who had nothing at all to do with the procedures, the most recent entering with forms for me to sign. I mean were batting 1000
Bluntly, of their interest in me was voyeuristic, I could actually feel a sense of flattery in consolation, but I think it's simply karma. Having to deal with & accept which
Needless to say, my preference for women is based on the fact that on a level I can laugh off these encroachments. if males made these violations, I'd be texting this from San Quentin.
I think you are living in idealistic parallel universe, & those of us who've optimistically pursued redress for these issues know they only backfire. The DOJ looks at us as whiny crybabies..Again, age was a factor in their trying to keep me overnight for a simple knee scope but such age descrimination claims are trivial to them .
Knowing I had no recourse, UCLA dismissed my ADA related demands for underwear during epidurals & knee scopes, & exclusion of assistants that aren't actively assisting. Males not welcome too!
Please do us all a favor, follow through with your ADA complaints to a level of satisfaction, share with us the address & phone numbers, & results,& well all be happy copycats
Your post se Who said I want all male staf? In my formative years, the medical sex abuse was perpetrated by balding 50+ men with bow ties.
Subsequently, all my providers are women, & I even request them, & if ever a chaperone forced on me, I'd request a female )as is a right, though I'd actual just walk out.
But for the record, I don't use urinals, & in men's rooms, & I unapologetically slam the stall door ostentatiously to telegraph my distaste
I am never going to try to perpetuate the stereotype of the gay male nurse. All airline stewards aren't gay either, but I'll venture the vocation's percentage-wise attraction has to be much higher than the average national cross section
Try sauntering through the large hospitals in Palm Springs, Palm Desert, Rancho Mirage, look at the make staff, & tell me why any red blooded guy wouldn't tend to leave there with a clenched butt.
My apologies for not checking out your links.
Listen, My complaint for ADA violation & age descrimination was to the dept of Justice & it went nowhere.
I had even a stronger HIPPA violation complaint against EMC, after I faxed in a very explicit, generic revocation of release of information form, rather than driving 60+ miles to fill out all the hospitals HIPPA revocation forms. & my complaint was dismissed after the investigated agent bought into EMCs assertion that only "their revocation forms" are valid.
Since Reagan, none of these agencies are truly operative.
If all these overnight posting was from you TC, they are all welcome important ventilation and explanation from you, but please conclude each posting with your identification, TC, so there is regular clarity of who created the posting.
Thank you.
Perhaps this opportunity to ventilation to a group of writers of similar experience of professional misbehaviors will be a form of therapy for you TC. ..Maurice.
I’m so thankful for finding this blog. I have experienced some horrible embarrassment at the hands of healthcare providers. The most recent occurrence about year and half ago while I scheduled for a cath. The woman nurse that shaved me was professional and showed kindness. This part of the procedure was good. I was wheeled into cath room. A few minutes passed and three women nurses and two male nurses enter the room. Two of women nurses were on the right side of the bed, one of women was on the left side. The two male nurses were at the foot of the bed. They were laughing about something when they came in. One of women pulled the blanket completely off of me and I was naked. One of the women moved my penis to one side and then another women coated my groin with something. The two male nurses whispered and then the five started laughing again. Not anyone ever spoke to me. They completed their humiliation and covered me up. They started to leave and this was the first time one of male nurses turned his head to tell me that doctor would be with me soon. After I read some of these posts I wrote a letter to hospital detailing this horrible experience. I was already scared and to have five laughing nurses seeing me naked I felt sick. I doubt I will hear anything from the hospital.
Good evening group.
Part 1.
TC, Steve, welcome to the group. I’m sorry about all the troubles our wonderfully broken-down healthcare system threw at both of you.
What you both have experienced is really nothing new to many of us here.
What has been done to male healthcare in this country is nothing short of criminal and the federal government is complicit in this crime as they know it is happening all across this nation & are taking no steps to put a stop to it.
In the American healthcare system as, it stands on one leg today, males are and will be an endangered species.
The today’s healthcare worker has lost all caring, compassion, empathy, honesty, integrity, respect for others, & trustworthiness when it comes to male patients. We are treated like livestock instead of human beings.
Men & boys are being treated this way because what was taught to doctors, nurses, & techs in school about patient dignity, respect, & privacy, gets replaced in real world medical situations with put up, shut up, & do as your told or don’t come looking for care. This is happening because of the culture that’s been allowed to fester & grow within individual institutions is going unchecked by mgmt. & it will stay that way as long as the system keeps paying bribes in the form of campaign contributions to senators & congressmen to keep them from filing ANY kind of legislation that would crimp their style of running their healthcare system.
Steve, I have a question. When the woman nurse came in to shave you, did she introduce herself first & then explain what she was there to do & offer you a male caregiver in her place to make you more comfortable with that needed to be done?
If she didn’t, did you raise the question of a male caregiver in her place?
Next, the three women nurses and two male nurses entered the room.
Did ANY of them introduce themselves to you?
Did ANY of them explain the cathing procedure to you?
And finally, did ANY of them explain why your cathing needed FIVE people in the room?
Did you ask about the procedure? Did you ask why it takes 5 people to put a cath in?
It’s imperative that men & boys find their voice & just say STOP & NO. You have the right to ask for same gender caregivers of which there were two right there at your bedside.
Next you have the right to ask that ALL nonessential medical or otherwise people leave the room during the catheterization process. It’s none of their damn business!
With the blessing of our federal government, the powers that shaped what has become todays healthcare system have designed what has become a female centric system whereby female healthcare takes priority over male healthcare & nowhere does it show it’s ugly head than in the treatment of patients.
Male patients are verbally abused & treated like livestock on a daily basis whereas female patients are treated like royalty.
If a male nurse were to verbally abuse a female patient in the manner that female nurses abuse male patients, he’d be fired & possible face criminal charges.
By the same token should a female nurse verbally abuse a male patient for not following orders, she’d get a “that a girl”, “good job.”
All because the system is female centric, they first & foremost protect their own so should the male patient complain, its his word against a system of female healthcare workers therefore he will NEVER be believed unless he as video or audio proof of the encounter.
They’re allowed to continue to do it because men REFUSE to push back as hard as it takes & due to the shortage of qualified nurses, mgmt. won’t rock the boat unless they do it to a VIP or physical harm is involved.
end Part 1.
Part 2.
We need legislation in the form of male patient protocols whereby the patient, NOT the healthcare worker is believed unless said healthcare worker provides irrefutable proof in the form of audio and/or video to the contrary.
Put the onus back where it belongs. On the healthcare worker NOT the abused patient.
I’ve been to Washington & I can tell you without like minded people in congress, we are up a creek without a paddle as far as legislation goes.
I’ve already notified my state & federally elected officials to look elsewhere for a vote next election cycle as they’ve done nothing to advance male healthcare therefore, I can do nothing to advance their political career.
Until men stop fighting amongst themselves & telling some to suck it up buttercup close your eyes & just do it, we will never bring this issue to the forefront & get them to the table & talk things over.
Because of our inability to put the egos aside & work together, we are assuring that our sons & grandsons will be forced to endure the same nightmare we are facing today in their tomorrows.
Doctors know the system is broken. They write books about it rather than take a stand & try fixing it.
https://www.generalsurgerynews.com/Opinion/Article/12-23/-Healthcare-Upside-Down-/72379?sub=E84CB45B51C22A9B27C8E433A02ADCC95C914BC5C69C616EF17E26D8DFB&tken=B2C2FB56A44DFD1AD33D15992D95552E85FF8D5CA28F6DA2D57EF6B352D9&enl=true&dgid=&pos=1
Then ya have the Brits. There was this well knows female Brit who was having an operation. Ms. Steele had been due to have a complicated abdominal operation at The Princess Grace in London on Oct 10 last year and, in her admission forms, she said she required single-sex lavatories and bathrooms and would not discuss pronouns.
The former solicitor underwent her pre-op assessment, a trans nurse not involved in her care entered her private examination room.
As a result, she requested that only biological women were involved in her care and was then informed over email that her operation was being cancelled. She was accused of discrimination against the nurse.
From that encounter came this.
https://news.yahoo.com/private-hospital-guarantees-same-sex-180000406.html
I’ve attempted to get an answer from across the pond if this applies to both sexes or just women. I haven’t heard back from anyone yet.
That’s it for this edition.
Be well all & have a happy & safe new year if we don’t talk again soon.
Regards,
NTT
TC Thanks for your kind words MB. I'm often told that venting only reinforces the bad narrative. Nothing helps. My venting & ranting about various things has earned me the labels of negative, cynical. Pollyanna's hellbent on "negating my negativity" with nothing to back it up except empty words & meaningless platitudes that only serve to alienate me further by invalidating,
My flurry of desperate posts are actually spurred on by the accumulation of medical problems, slings & arrow of outrageous fortune I won't tolerate for long.
@banterings, I'm happy to announce here my epidural was fully clothed. Some hope. The epidural scheduled for me at UCLA would've been in just a gown, sans underwear. My point is that their lame excuse, "sterilization" would hold up in any inquiry, all the way to the supreme court & supercede my "reasonable accommodation" requests.
It's because tthe prevailing conservative, Authoritarian Personality mindset is that recreational sex is immoral & to be discouraged, even criminalized (even though they engage in it) that a women deserves no control over her own reproductive organs. However, ANY authority figure: a cop, a TSA agent, a college administrator, a correctional officer, doctor, nurse, public school teacher should have limitless access to another's privates for what only can be an exercise of sexual humiliation for its own sake.
Conservative courts have always upheld this institutionalized perversity, in nearly every legal challenge of warrantless strip search, forced nude swimming, employment physicals & observed drug tests.
I want to share with you a video reporting an 11 minute anal & cavity search in public. The woman's real crime wasn't the rolling stop, it was being black & owning a BMW in the racist south. The entire 11 minute dashcam video was removed from YouTube. It's heartbreaking.
I'm also sharing another YouTube video showing flagrant medical participation in this insanity & utimately perversity. This happened before a decade at a New Mexico hospital with a man getting 14 hour strait of enemas. (His mistake mouthing off to doctors about human rights). What more evidence that medical staff brains are similarly hardwired to cops, correctional officers, even public school teachers) who strive to control others, even arguably "warrior types". .
https://youtu.be/X-oN9mJDPsI?si=9EL2pk-pd1aT4tyX
https://youtu.be/FNbPcIafdUA?si=sj_Wr9zA9So3yR97
My condolences. The experience can't be undone. But you have a chance to prevent it from happening again by being very vocal to all staff at your next visit.
TC
With the two religious holidays (Jewish and Christian) having passed for this year, it would be interesting to read whether my readers to this blog topic have used these religions and their leaders nationally or locally to facilitate your attempt to get the medical profession to attend to your personal and physical concerns and your "wantings" of what you want and what you don't want in the medical professional's actions or inactions.
How about what you know about the attention paid to those patients of other religions? ..Maurice.
To answer your questions about the nurses. The nurse that shaved me. Introduced herself by name and did explain the procedure. She asked me if it would be okay for herself to do the shaving. She promised it would be quick and I would be covered back up afterwards. I did not ask for a male nurse. I felt comfortable with the experience. The five other nurses was completely different. None of them introduced themselves, or told me what they were doing. The only dialogue occurred at the very end when one of the male nurses was about to exit the door turned his head back to me to say that the doctor will see me shortly. I have to admit I was very scared at the moment and I didn’t feel like asking anything. Afterwords is when I felt like this was so horrible and you are correct why 5 and as 1 nurse could have done everything. This has been on my mind for a long time. This blog allowed me to see and open up about my experiences. It gave me the confidence to write a letter to the hospital — like I said I doubt anything will happen! Steve
If it is about sterility, then provide the patient with sterile scrub pants/shorts!
Read this research from 2017:
How surgeons can stop the spread of germs by operating NAKED instead of wearing surgical gowns Reference:
SO WHY ARE THE SURGEONS AND NURSES NOT NAKED????
Here is the truth about infection control: Behaviours and rituals in the operating theatre. A report from the Hospital Infection Society Working Party on Infection Control in Operating Theatres
The argument of infection control will not stand. If that is what they tell you, ask why they do not provide sterile pants for patients. This issue has been around for years and providers are aware of the psychological side effects and ignore this? This amounts to negligence and malpractice.
Ask to see the facility's Infection Control manual (remember the large print for access for people with poor sight).
Quite simply, if one facility can allow, then every place can allow it.
As to gender preference, simply say it is a religious conviction. What if you were muslim (or some other religion) and had deep held religious beliefs about who sees you naked, you would be accommodated. One thing that I teach patients to do is express their identity as a protected class (gender, orientation, religion, race, etc.), and simply ask if they want protesters on their front door for discrimination.
Back to infection control: saying you cannot wear underwear is NOT the answer. Then the facility needs to provide an acceptable garment. This is prophylaxis against your pre-existing PTSD from previous assaultive (like) behavior (as perceived by you) from previous providers.
-- Banterings
Visit W3Schools.com!
TC here. Yes, infection control is a bogus argument that holds no water.. but THEU are holding the cards. I've researched other venues to have my knees scoped & the other arguments are "quick catheterization in the event of life threatening mishaps". Another, high tornequette application, where as some other hospitals tell me that underwear contains the " man parts" such that it makes tournequette application easier.
But these places are allowed to make up their own rules. Not like I can sick a policeman on them .
Hello all,
In the article NTT referenced (private hospital guarantees same-sex care) a UK organization was mentioned - Sex Matters. I wrote the following to this organization: "Thank you for the wonderful work you are doing for women. Is it possible for you to broaden your perspective to include men? Yes, many men would also appreciate same-sex care. Unfortunately, when men ask for same-sex care they are scoffed at or, their requests are dismissed forthright. Please consider including men in your efforts to secure same-sex dignity for all patients. Thank you." I would encourage other posters here to make a similar request to this organization. Although this is a UK group, procedures can cross the pond, sometimes rather quickly. Their URL is https://sex-matters.org/contact/.
Take care and, a Joyous Holiday season to all.
Reginald
Hello Dr. Bernstein,
I'm responding to your 26 Dec question about asking for religious accommodations. Before a hip arthroplasty I requested an all-male surgical team from the hospital and the orthopedist. I based my request on childhood sexual abuse from females and on religious grounds. This was done via certified letter to the surgeon. Oddly, enough a reply came from the referring GP. (This was really weird. One writes to one doctor but, is answered by another.) The GP stated that they would try to affect an all-male team. After much (pesky?) messaging to hospital and ortho, I was able to have an all-male team. I'm not sure whether the religious statements were instrumental; however, I did state them.
Presently, religion seems to have taken a back seat to gender identity and race. Our society seems to consider religion as pre-scientific musing. A "trans-physical" entity (God) or realm (Heaven, Nirvana, etc.) seems to be countenanced only in foolish ghost or paranormal movies. A recent governmental effort to require Chic-fil-A to be open on Sunday is just one example of the lack of concern for religious sentiments. Unfortunately, I believe that many today view religion as akin to medieval alchemy. As our society tends increasingly towards materialism, I fear that religion will become Marx's "evil opiate of the people ". One can easily understand why medical personnel might neglect, or dismiss, one's religious concerns.
Reginald
Hello,
Relative to A. Banterings concern re sterility, the following is the URL of a relatively new (2021) article ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8406791/ ).
Reginald
Happy Birthday Maurice
I do hope you get your strolls along a nice beach somewhere. I know you have tried but these volumes have done absolutely
nothing.
PT
Hello again Dr. Bernstein,
I object highly to PT's statement "... these volumes have done absolutely nothing." Many of us (myself included) have benefited from "speaking up". We've also learned that we're not alone and, we're not extreme outliers. I sincerely thank you for hosting a blog which has helped many. You have served your profession outstandingly. Thank you.
Reginald
I think there is a certain ratio of workers who gravitate to medical work because they get sexual gratification from seeing and displaying to others exposed patients. Others possibly don't get sexual thrills but enjoy creating humiliation for the patient. For that kind of staff this blog isn't going to impact their abusive treatment too much. They may respect a patient who could possibly retaliate but otherwise no It's only a person who hadn't given it any thought but are compassionate who would make improvement. JF
Dr Bernstein and contributors,
Concerning the issue of full disclosure of hospital procedures, I have found that there is often a great deal of information about preparation before surgery, what happens in the preoperative area, the surgery itself, and what to expect post-surgery. The prepping, draping, and post-surgery processes are not really mentioned, which of course is where the majority of intimate exposure would happen.
I also found Biker’s description of his cystoscopy preparation odd in that a male was provided for prep but then the female nurse assisted in the procedure. This reminds me of the one imaging center that called me to say they could provide a male chaperone for a female sonographer doing my scrotal ultrasound. Kind of defeats the purpose.
In a few weeks I will be meeting with my urologist to reschedule my ESWL and cystoscopy. I plan to ask some very specific questions about the logistics of the two procedures. I can’t image that they would do a cystoscopy on the specialized ESWL table unless my urologist is planning some type of an abbreviated exam where they don’t pump fluid into the bladder. If I have to move to different rooms or tables, exactly how does that happen? I once had a kidney stent removed via Ureteroscopy without any numbing jell or any preparation at all and my urologist and I were the only people in the room. It took less than 5 minutes from the insertion until he pulled the stent out. My current urologist told me that I could have a male team for the ESWL and that there wouldn’t be any females “handling” me except for the normal pre-op processes. Perhaps that will be similar to Biker’s experience and there might be a female assistant for the cystoscopy who is watching and handing things to the urologist. This would not be what I had in mind for a male-only team. They like to use sedation for the ESWL, but I will ask about some type of local block so I can be aware of what actually happens.
I read the article concerning the active shooter planning and agree with other commenters that violence isn’t acceptable although I understand the anger and frustration of people who have been harmed physically and mentally during their medical treatments. The statistics didn’t seem to show a large “revenge” type motive towards doctors or nurses in that they were only 3% and 5% of the 235 people injured or killed, respectively. In the 11 year study, only 20% of those injured/killed at medical facilities were hospital employees. Most of the attacks appeared to be motivated by personal grudges, suicides, “euthanasia” of sick relatives, and criminal escapes. I think in general, and for me personally, there is way more risk of self-harm than any homicidal tendencies
Do to the uncontrolled invasion on the southern border and the influx of tens of thousands of military-aged men from countries that hate the United States, I fully expect terrorist type attacks on soft-targets to increase in the next few years, making this type of planning important.
As far as the moral or ethical responsibility of medical personnel to protect patients, I would hope that appropriate safety measures for patients would be taken but ultimately I couldn’t blame anyone for doing what was necessary for self-preservation. Medical personnel are not trained combatants.
TC and Steve – welcome to the blog. I hope that participation in this blog by either reading what others have experienced and sharing what you have experienced will help provide some measure of peace and be of therapeutic value while you traverse the medical landscape. I am angry/sad/frustrated at the experiences I read about and how so many medical institutions are negligent or simply clueless.
My bad experiences were nine years ago and trivial compared to what others have experienced but I have reached an age where more urological interventions are likely in my near future and I am worried.
EM
To All: I never had the assumption or evidence that what is written by the contributors here would reach an audience which included those in the occupation of medicine such as physician, nurses or others in medicine. And, as far as I can tell, I have no proof that it is reaching that audience. We did have this past year briefly a female who stated she was a medical student but with the same concerned personal views as those writing here.
In other words, this particular long running (years and years) topic appears to be simply an outlet for patient ventilation...which, of course is of therapeutic medical benefit.
Do I wish input by members of the medical service profession? Of course, but that just isn't happening.
Anyway, I just wanted to clarify this blog thread role. Perhaps, patients should encourage their medical professionals to at least visit here. ..Maurice.
Thanks EM for your kind words. I agree with Dr Bernstein that it would be very helpful if members of the medical profession would read these concerns. My experience is that empathy is lacking in many of the medical community professions.
JF is right. Those who go into healthcare for voyeuristic reasons or for power/control reasons will never seek out or otherwise care to learn about the negative consequences on patients. Those who want to understand patient perspectives and the harms that healthcare staff can inadvertently cause can learn by reading the kinds of accounts written here.
All posters here, please be sure that each post is identified by your pseudonym.
It is important to recognize who is writing the post. Thanks. ..Maurice.
Sorry I forgot to enter my name. This is Steve
That issue of voyeurism, sexual gratification does cop up when I ask myself why?. Men are innately voyeuristic, & we are told that females are the opposite & rarely visually oriented. Playgirl magazine did go out of business.
So I can't fathom the unapologetic aggressiveness nurses have shown me. What makes my situation unique here, is my abject avoidance of situation where I'm exposed. For all 8 or 9 breaches of dignity throughout my life, a female ambushes me. I'm batting 1000 . It can be only one thing & that power. Ritualistic breaking down of boundaries for its own sake for the same reasons n a dog licks himself -- he can!
This is hitting me hard because my totally F____ed lumbar discs (that weren't symptomatic prior to Oct 17, are causing me pain, after I dug a utility trench, & I anticipate further damage after a grace period of 10 weeks for inflammation to subside. The attempted epidural last week was aborted because the lidocaine being injected into L2 to L5 hurt so much it didn't take effect. ,
I'll refuse any open surgery But will consider an arthroscopic microdiscectomy, only. From what I read here, full exposure won't be avoided (though I didn't nt see my genitalia being "crushed" at any point, or showing a need to be inventoried either. As you know, I'm banned from UCLA because of my adamant refusal to tolerate an epidural (or similar) while exposed. For the aborted epidural I was fully clothed. Sanity in a medical setting prevailed. In theory, minimal incisions (sometimes done under a local) aren't too different from injections.
Make no mistake about it, my "modesty" concerns are a microcosmic view of my misanthropic world view. I want a divorce from the human race, I don't want to be tethered to others in dependence to feel normal, & I won't allow things to continue much longer. .
The last poster's comments are impressive and worthy but please, please identify yourself with your pseudonym. It is important to tie in what you have written here previously and what you are adding or emphasizing now. ..Maurice.
I tried to put myself in my physician’s mindset. In this process I looked.at several universities and their programs and it became very clear that early in the program training they are desensitized to nudity. As the student progresses through their training to residency they are further desensitized. I’m not a doctor, I’m the victim of this desensitization of the human body. These programs of course teach medical ethics, but ethics and moral empathy are not the same thing. I have experienced some doctors that completely take empathy as important as medical care. I wish more doctors had this compassion for empathy. I’m still struggling with the damage caused by the medical community that lack empathy, kindness, and respect for dignity. Steve
Steve the desensitization process isn’t always complete on some individuals. One recent example is Dr. Robert Hadden whose career started in 1987 and ended recently with his arrest. They figured that he had the opportunity to violate somewhere between 6000 to 8000 patients before he was caught. He is only one of a long list of doctors and nurses that somehow escaped the desensitization process.
The concern for the patients is the knowledge that only a small percentage of these individuals are actually found out and when possible if found out by the facility they practice out of the matter is swept under the rug.
I would suggest that everyone read about him and the facility he practiced at that now faces 165 million lawsuit for their complacency
A patient has no idea what they are stepping into yet they are expected to submit themselves to be totally vulnerable and trusting?
Maurice et al,
providers don't want to know what patients think or feel, after all, none of us are doctors (or so they assume)...
i train patients how to survive healthcare encounters, while my ethics don't want to teach people to outright lie, i do teach patients to "play by the rules of the game." providers can legally lie to patients and regularly if they don't lie they omit many relative aspects of care. (i have demonstrated this in previous volumes, no need to reference).
now one may have religious beliefs about modesty, in our current climate and especially if one is at an academic institution, and you ask for a religious accommodation, i would recommend wearing a bisht, kurta, jubba, and/or a muslim (skull) cap.
just look at the testimony of the presidents of mit, penn, and havard testifying before congress. it seems that muslims are given a preference in our academic institutions. i can cite many other references to this, but i feel that i don't need to.
if your medical records have you listed as a Christian, one can simply explain that as being a messianic muslim (similar to a messianic jew) was not a choice.
as steve alluded to, med students are desensitized, but i take it a step farther that their conscience is suppressed and patients are dehumanized. i write about this in my blog. i have also discussed how chaperones are useless and the practice is abusive.
-- banterings
I agree with you. I didn’t mean that everyone is totally changed through the process.
Yes, that is exactly what I wanted to convey - dehumanizing. Thanks for clarifying this.
Another serial predator at a teaching institution! My concern is less the "bad apple" physicians, but rather the lack of peer intervention. It's Vatican style compliance & coverup in medical-academic administration, encouraging abusers to "help themselves" to the cute college girls. When thousands of cases blatant abuse are ignored, we all have to fear more subtle, ambiguous misconduct every time we step into any medical facility.
Marcos Ramos at BU medical school saw lots of workman's comp patients, cops, firemen, state office employees for things such as sprained wrists knees, broken fingers & such. Each & every patient, male & female, got a DRE under the threat of reporting to the insurance company they were faking, & he made good on his threats. Can you imagine, with workman's comp & other insurance companies & agencies involved, how much corroborating cross documentation exists outside the medical board & BUMC? Yet all complaints were dismissed as "unsubstantiated".
I was living in NH when the news broke on the 11 o'clock news that Ramos has been arrested for raping a female patient & 7 other assaults. Not only did they reported Ramos' MO of insisting on DREs from all patients at the threat of forfeiting workman's comp benefits, but described an incident in which an obese woman quite reluctantly gave into the DRE, Ramos massaged her buttocks while calling her a "fat, dirty little girl".
After the arrest, 17 more victims came forward & now Ramos has been in jail for about 20 years.
In 1976, age 19, I had been coerced unto into my first prostate exam (not at all indicated) by another BUMC physician who insisted he couldn't help me without a DRE, but ultimately gave no insight into my problem anyway.
Given men's inherent sexual aggressiveness I'm not surprised, & I have no knowledge of female doctors blatantly doing this stuff to men or women, though the aggressiveness that nurses show in subjugating patients is unparalleled, & so common that it will never be viewed as abuse -- just business as usual.
TC
TC please look up Dr. Twana Sparks she is a perfect example of a female doctor violating men under anesthesia . This went on for 10 years before being reported while an all female OR team looked on in laughter, in her case she only got a slap on the wrist but should have been charged.
Banterings I read your post on your blog site about the mental aspects that carry into the medical world and I found it fascinating. with all the accusations directed at patients that they need to seek psychiatric care for their unrealistic concerns for patient dignity. You very effectively conveyed and explained the need for people on the other side of the aisle to evaluate their own possible need for psychiatric help. I wish what you wrote would be required reading in medical school. There would first have to be an acknowledgment that a potential issue existed,
This is TC, & I'm having quite a worriful week, so I profusely apologize for this flurry of over posting.
It's looking like lumbar surgery is lurking in my horizon & I'll never submit to any open surgery. It's either nano or microdiscectomies if I can find someone who does it & takes Medicare.
I'm going to ask a question to group: anyone here who's recently had an lumbar presurgical evaluation, who's denied loss of urinary control, but still faced a bulbouscavernous and/or anal wink exam? For that matter, I'd like to hear accounts even from those who have, or suspected of having SPI. (No sciatica or loss of sphincter control for me, just a back that can't tolerate lifting & exercise w/o flaring up.)
I need to be informed, & the internet articles (20-25 years old) show those exams are obsolete & discouraged, even for evaluating spinal shock in the ER. What particularly still shocks me is that these studies involve control groups of "normal" people -- no injury. How is it that they don't rise up in arms, saying "you're not going to squeeze my clitoris or penis glans, what sort of cheap patient do you think I am? "
This related anecdote is probably old hat in this group. I'm 2008 a Long Island carpenter came in to an ER with a forehead gash requiring 4 stitches. No trauma to the base of the skull. He was alert, coherent, able to advocate for himself, & turned down a DRE, but wasn't given a choice, even though "implied consent" wasn't impelling -- though it was the main defense. He was swarmed & sedated while he punched the doctor in self defense. He woke up in an open gown handcuffed to the gurney as he was arrested for assault.
A jury of peers judged favorably for the ER staff in the ensuing lawsuit -- those brown nosing Brown Shirts! Those types also advocate TSA genital patdowns "for everyone's safety".
While shopping for an Orthopedist I'll probably won't be threatened with any of those perverted genital exams, at the threat of not getting minimal incision surgery. But I never thought that at an EMG my running shorts would be violently pulled down without warning or permission, but it happened.
Thanks for the heads up here. My first job as a dishwasher, the restaurant's manager, the proprietors son, used to openly urinate into a sink where large pots & pans had to be manually washed. Cleary a mocking show of power
I can venture a guess as to why just a slap in the wrist for Dr Sparks. . Maybe at the time New Mexico (a reactionary state) had no laws prohibiting UIE's to anesthesized patients. Where med students had carte blanche to have their way with helpless patients, a doctor has Her big incriminating mistake was showing such mockery & disrespect by writing on them. Otherwise she'd still be practicing her amateur urology avocation right now
Yes it was TC answering about Sparks
TC,
If you read my posts here you will see what to do: ask for an ADA accommodation. You might want to look into agencies that work with people suffering from mental illness to see if they have any advocates.
If you rad the story of Dr. Robert Hadden on ProPublica, you will see how many providers ignored the problem.
IF YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION, THEN YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM!
People who do nothing are part of the problem. We need to make examples of a few to scare the rest of the profession. I don't mean providers who spent decades abusing thousands of patients, I mean the medical student or resident who make their first mistake. Administrative people at Columbia need to be held responsible. The president and the board: the people who run the institution.
-- Banterings
TC
I have told this story in prior volumes but will repeat it for your benefit. In late 2021, I had minimally invasive lumbar surgery to fix sciatic pain from a 30 year-old injury that would periodically flare up. I did not have any bladder or bowel related issues resulting from the injury.The surgery was at the L5-S1 vertebrae where a Laminectomy and partial Facetectomy were performed to relieve pressure on the nerves. Prior to surgery, I had an EMG with a male doctor at a different facility than my surgery. I might have been in my underwear and wearing a gown but was never exposed. In addition, I did not disrobe at all for my consultation for the surgery and only provided a copy of the MRI for the doctor to review. My surgery was performed at BioSpine in Tampa, FL. BioSpine is a private practice and is not affiliated with a university or hospital system. They granted my request for an all-male surgical team and allowed me to wear a COVR garment. I did end up allowing the female surgical coordinator to participate in my surgery because of our pre-surgery conversations and several conversations that occurred while I waited several hours for my delayed surgery to begin. Because of the compassion and understanding she showed me during these conversations, I felt like I could trust her. It is quite possible that the COVR garment was removed prior to surgery and replaced after my surgery was completed but I did not pursue verification as I did not want to chance ruining what I considered a positive surgical encounter. Since then, I have had shoulder, foot, and wrist surgery where I was allowed to wear my underwear. To verify that my underwear remained on, I used a temporary fabric glue that would have revealed any tampering. Recently, I made a suggestion to a fellow blog contributor that he might look for a doctor that owns an interest in a private surgical center. These are common in Florida and were also common in the Washington DC metro area. I think there is a much better chance of getting the desired outcome as the doctor and surgical center do not want to lose the business and the doctor probably has more control than at a hospital where he simply has privileges. My current urologist owns an interest in a local urological surgical center where I will be asking for accommodations for my upcoming ESWL and cystoscopy procedures.
EM
TC here. Thanks for the info. Sparks is practicing in New Mexico whee its not considered a "violation" to touch, examine (whatever) nonconsenting anesthetized patients. No laws or even rules prohibiting that. Med students have Carte Blanche to have their way with them in the OR, so a surgeon (higher ranking) won't be denied . Her only real "violation" or technical mistake are the written messages left on the men's bodies. The mocking body notes may or may not bolster my assertion that misandry (not sexual gratification) plays the primarily role, & if not for spelling it out (literally) she'd still be free to indulge her amateur urology avocation right now as we speak.
Here, do no harm translates to what the sucker doesn't know won't hurt him. No moral compass I'm medicine.
TC I’m sorry for all you are facing and for the patient the fear of the unknown is most concerning. My experience is the less you know the more they like it. And it seems they do everything they can to keep it that way. The internet has pulled the curtain back on much that happens and I’m sure they don’t like what they do to be revealed because for many people it raises red flags and a flood of questions they would rather not have to answer. It is interesting to watch some of the u tube procedures that are out there because it is clear they are highly sanitized because they control the narrative in the OR . One example is abdominal surgery. Skin prep for this is done from nipple to knees but in all the videos the patients genitals remain covered during the prep? Pretty neat trick.
I had surgery on L4/L5 by a neurosurgeon he got all the information he needed from an MRI and he proceeded with the surgery with that information only. After the surgery the pain was gone. He had me do the injections first with no success but I think that is standard procedure to avoid surgery if possible. My thoughts are prayers are with you. I need hernia surgery and I know that I will be completely exposed for that one . I was assured by the surgeon that women would be tending to me intimately. Needless to say I still have that hernia
Bantering
I tried the link to the Robert Hadden story but was sent to w3schools.com. I found a link to the story and included it below.
I am always beyond shocked at how long the abuse went on, how it was ignored by the organizations, and how the absolute trust in the doctor caused these women to doubt themselves and not do anything.
https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.propublica.org/article/columbia-obgyn-sexually-assaulted-patients-for-20-years&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjCrf7ut7qDAxV1le4BHeQzC_AQFnoECAEQAg&usg=AOvVaw38MKD3sFnzt3i4rK6DNoyz
EM
TC here. Banterings I will at least look into your method of asking for reasonable accomodations.
One thing I must get out of the way. There are no agencies (particularly MH) that effectively advocate for low end people. They are nothing Kabuki theater with very limited power & even less intelligence & skill. Believe me, I'd be sitting pretty & not whining here if such agencies helped me when I asked. They flat out refused to deal with potential medical dignity violations preemptively and after the fact. Only the rape crisis center offered counseling. She was a no call, no show for the counseling, & if I went, I'd have made a mockery of severe sexual assault on women.
More importantly, someone, maybe you, has referred to me (in my PTSD state) as dealing with a possible "perception" of being assaulted. PTSD perception of not, we all agree here that my few bad experiences were medically unnecessary. Asking for "special consideration" on MH grounds will 1) compromise the assertion that unecessary intimate body part exposure, lacking a compelling medical justification, should apply to everyone crazy or not 2) it will raise red flags, stigmatizing myself as a potential problem patient who cries "wolf". It already happened at UCLA last March. No statute of limitations here, I asked for reasonable accomodations, now who's going to punish them? Who even punished Ed Weisneier ? I have patient rights, but they can terminate services for any reason. Been there done that at both EMC & UCLA.
Lastly I've referred to Hobbes quote, agree wholeheartedly with Jeff that you need to scare or blackmail these bastards with severe consequences. What are the severe consequences of ignoring an ADA request? Who goes to jail, who's clinic gets shutdown, who's license is pulled, who's sued & ruined for life?
(In 2021 someone took out a credit card in my name at a specific address in 29 Palms while I was living in Joshua Tree. They paid minimal monthly payments through their bank accounts & incriminated themselves. Stupid? No! The police told me to just let it go, even though I handed over the culprits to them in a silver platter.)
I can tell you after facing ADA related workplace discrimination & harassment there hasn't been recourse for decades under conservative democrat & republican rule. You call these government agencies, such as the DFHE & you don't get to advocate for yourself in writing. You speak to an apathetic representative from Pakistan or India who doesn't want to gather the evidence & aggressively pursue the matter. Later, when they mail you a summary of your case, your spoken words have morphed into something completely different.
Only the most one sided, egregious discrimination cases go to trial on a contingency basis, just like malpractice: catastrophic injury only. At best, these labor cases go to arbitration for $1500 settlements, something businesses can easily absorb, so no REAL incentive to stop violating the ADA in letter & spirit.
Please show me the big club I have at my disposal that I will definitely have to swing st them when I come up against their denials. They have everything that n their side: lawyers; corporate protection; political lobbying, setting the law & political to see e them, not the patient.
EM, this is TC, & your response is very informative. I had NO IDEA that laminectomies & such can be done via minimally invasive techniques. Only know that last year my MRI report showed a jacked up back, no pain. Now significant pain, probably a newer MRI is called for. With only my MRI report at my disposal & my PCP not an expert, I've been able to guess that I only had a microdiscectomy (cleaning out debris that might do it) at my disposal. I'm prepared to hear with L1 to S1 all needing attention, one open wound would called for -- I'll die first.
Who knows what I'll find on Medicare & minimal SSI. Last February I thought I was in Heaven when I found a privately run orthopedic clinic. Only the doctor answered recorded calls & he never followed through with scheduling surgery. Red flag (!) in his telling me that if I were to wear any garments for my knee scope, cauterizing the knee wounds could result in an electric shock at my elastic waistband. (It didn't happen in 1999 when I wore Nike running shorts.) So, i spent $39 for a pair of white, drawstring hemp shorts I planned to cut high at the hemline & I emailed him about it, & never got a reply or scheduler call, spurring both my PCP & Imtself to pressure him to follow through with long overdue surgery. He termed it *disruptive" & he dismissed me as a patient.
Thanks also for informing me the COVR garment. If I wanted to prolong an unhappy life, & actually were to have a colonoscopy, I wouldn't press patient modesty to a point of demanding colonoscopy shorts.
My sincere condolences on your impending urological travails. Faced with that, I'd simply go to sleep & not wake up. I see myself in a world with about 8 billion adversaries. Even my patronizing PCP will soon betray me -- as everyone else has. No shame, not actually modesty, no real concern they'll get sexual gratification from me. I just want everyone to stay away from there. Better fences make better neighbors
I'm glad you have a team of surgeons that you trust. Though for me, it's simple: they either have to legitimately access the l-1 to S1 area by exposing me, or not. @Jeff points out, we simply don't get honesty there
Not being upfront about potential removal of the COVR would avail them to me as particularly untrustworthy -- but so is everyone.
TC here again. So sorry to belabor this, but am ADA request to prevent unnecessary intimate exposure will be rebutted with the same lame, incongruous counterargument, asserting the exposure is necessary. As a lay person you've lost the argument in the eyes of any outside arbiters. All male team you requested & got as that specific request holds water, but other legitimate requests? Oh, like "don't probe my butt while I'm anesthetized for my nose job". Good luck Charley if it's legal in your state. I'm being a realist here! Corruption is corruption.
I will recount my urinary BPH travails that I suffered a little with, rather than addressing it. (No cancer worries.)
September 2021 I saw arrogant female doctor just to get prescription strength allergy eye drops, that are now OTC. She had a super young, attractive scribe (a new concept for me). In a "what if" scenario, would the kid have to watch my rectum probed -- no screen in that room! Frankly a violent atmosphere if I couldn't send her out -- like stepping into prison shower. Any gender forced on me in a spectator role won't happen..
The doctor reminded me my last PCP visit was two years prior (good riddance) & she's not going to prescribe anything without a full blood panel (all I wanted was Pattaday eye drops that I didn't get). She snuck in a PSA w/o my approval also gave me an ECC requisition for a suspected heart murmur. She was fired in the spot.
I figured this one myself self, rising blood pressure meant turbulent blood flow. Cardura lowers blood pressure and relieves urinary difficulties. I got the Cardura from an internet doctor, then my ECC was just fine.
I made it clear to my new PA at another clinic I'm ti stay on Cardura for hypertension that can be measured & graphed, but with the subjective ancillary benefit that I can urinate in comfort ."BUT" she said, " the blood work shows a 3.7 PSA, so in six months.., " NO 6 MONTHS, No cancer worries, never a urologist again!
She had written in her clinical notes to "outsource " the Cardura script to another facility in 6 months, that I adamantly told her I'd never visit. She was fired!
At the threshold of getting the same bullshit, I unravelled, worrying that a very effective drug would be withheld unless I submit to unnecessary sexual assault. At that point I called EVERYONE for help, yes, ADA request with the help of "agencies"! No one would listen, even the crisis walkin center turned me away, saying my they can't legitimately address my concerns. I was referred to the local hospital patients advocate who blew me off.
tc,
did you file a complaint with the joint commission? every time a complaint was filed, within 3 days they contacted the facility. i don't know what you are doing wrong. the most common problem is not approaching the agencies in a "professional" manner.
you really need to go after those previous providers until it sticks. you need to get creative. as for the psa test, file a complaint with your insurance company for unnecessary testing since bph raises psa level, you never consented to the test, etc.
look into law firms that specialize in ada cases. make sure that you send your provider an ada request via the patient portal so there is a record of it. you have to cover the bases if you want to go after them.
online prescribing, foreign pharmacies, black market, etc. are how you get your meds.
-- banterings
Hi everyone my name is Steve. I’m still working through some unnecessary violations of dignity at the hands of healthcare providers. As many of you are as well. Most likely many of you heard about the Florida scandal of schools giving out fake nursing diplomas. What a shame. We are to trust healthcare. Here are the details:
The U.S. Department of Justice says the three schools involved in the scheme were Siena College in Broward County, Palm Beach School of Nursing in Palm Beach County, and Sacred Heart International Institute in Broward County. All three schools have closed and 25 individuals have been charged.Mar 15, 2023
The more I read about how broken the healthcare system is the more angry I become. I’m sure there are many professionals in the healthcare field, but these people that have a total disregard to patient’s dignity really need to be removed from the institution of healthcare.
I never thought I would suffer from the actions of these people!
I hope all of you have many blessings in 2024.
Steve
Sorry, I don't understand all this pushback with just idealism. We have discrimination laws, but they don't stop police from murdering unarmed black motorists.
Point by point:
1) the joint commission will not usurp or invalidate the wide spread practice of underwear removal for sterilization. It's a technical matter they won't rebut, even though medicine lies about it. No punishment there.
2) In LA, chaperones for intimate exams are mandated by the city counsel. The joint commission can't undo that. No punishments.
3) the argument for need of assistants, scribes & such will devolve into a yet another fine technical judgement call by a physician. The board gives them enough latitude their fee to use that the joint commission won't usurp or punish.
4) Teaching institutions set their own rules. To even get an appointment at a teaching institution such as UCLA , you must sign an agreement that you understand students are involved (@ the discretion of the doctor. If you don't sign, you can't register. I signed because "discretion" was a possible loophole. The joint commission can't & won't undue these regulations. Where's the punishment if they could?
5) I've already filed "quality of care" grievances through Medicare's LAVANTRA for incompetent, irsufficient treatment & they always conclude the doctor made their own judgement calls. They don't punish by taking back payouts unless it's blatant fraud. They won't punish a dictatorial doctor for sneaking in a PSA. The general belief of EVERYONE involved, is that the doc is covering herself from lawsuits & trying to save my life, & I'm obstreperous for not prioritizing longevity over quality of life. I was also infuriated over the hep C test she snuck in. The implications behind certain lifestyle choices involved there infuriated me. I was told the NCDC wants it, & I retorted I'm their consumer & not Federal Government chattel, but they want their Federal $$$
6) the ADA is virtually defunct, undermined by 40+ years of conservative idealigy. Covil challenges are Kabuki theater , only go to arbitration & yield a few grand . Lawyers like car accidents, buy don't like ANY kind of medical suits because you really can't sue doctors & facilities
In December 2020 suicide attempt, I intentionally ripped out a Foley catheter on the ER table. 4 days later I woke up from an induced coma restrained to my bed. I was given the opportunity to go home then (no 5150!) & asked for 24 more hours rest. They kept me catheterized & restrained in one position for 48 hours. The back pain was indescribable. The county health department wrote them up on a technicality but no lawyer would take my case unless I paid them.
I've preemptive asked my female pain doctor (in writing) no assistants for a possible US guided inguinal nerve block (which will be my last genital procedure EVER, after which I'll inhale carbon monoxide first!) She didn't have an assistant when she peaked at the scar briefly. Taking this further by formally asking for "reasonable accommodation' (in a situation where a female provider might legitimately feel intimidated herself) might just blow it all up. I'm running out of pain clinics as I'm banned from most.
-TC
(MB please replace this more substantial rewrite, with initials this time)
TC to EM
"To verify that my underwear remained on, I used a temporary fabric glue that would have revealed any tampering. "
.. and what's your recourse if there was tampering? Any prior written agreement for a payout. (Like an assistant will narc out a team of surgeons rather than blaming you?) Other than firing them & going somewhere else for the next operation, what significant recourse is there for those not affording out of pocket lawsuuts they can't win anyway?.
Important question here. Judging from some of the pushback I get here (not from you specifically )I see in this group a discouraging disconnect between things as they are, as opposed to things as we may want them. Yes, it was a relief for you to find the glue intact upon waking up but...? Yes sanity sometimes prevails in the face of medical insanity (as it did at my aborted epidural) but sanity's the exception, not the rule when they hold the cards & can make up all those rules.
Maurice,
When I started posting on this blog, you and I had a disagreement about my position that intimate medical procedures are experienced as sexual assaults by some patients, especially children. I believe that since then, your view has changed on this.
I came across this article on Stat News that explores this very issue. There was a small 2022 study that they are attempting to repeat as a larger study. Here is a summary:
Researchers have long known that some children experience the test as sexually traumatic. In 1994, a team looking to study how children retain memories of traumatic experiences used a cohort of 24 children between ages 3 and 7 who’d undergone VCUGs as a proxy for abuse victims. “This invasive procedure is similar in many respects to incidents of sexual abuse,” the authors wrote in explaining their methodology.
As I have stated, the profession of medicine lacks empathy, they say these procedures are necessary, the way that we have always done things, not traumatic, etc. and they gaslight patients who don't go along with the narrative. The article goes on to say"
...It’s frustrating that the medical community conflates the procedure being low-risk with it being low-pain and low-trauma...Her experience points to a fundamental gap between the perspectives of people who undergo VCUG and their providers; urologists and radiologists who order and perform the test rarely see the patient again if the condition is resolved.
This is why medical students should practice these procedures on each other. Those who perform those procedures should undergo those procedures to gain the patients' perspective. It would also give providers credibility with their patients.
Not realizing that medical procedures can produce life-long trauma is gross negligence and malpractice on the part of the profession of medicine. I am NOT defending the profession, but I will tell you why it happens: healthcare providers do NOT want to know. I have compared what happens in medicine to what happened in the Holocaust (both on this blog and on my blog). Some of the reasons include (Milgram's) obedience to authority.
Society is slowly righting these wrongs and putting the power in the hands of the patients.
-- Banterings
MB, can you please delete the first redundant postings that didn't have my initials. Thanks! TC
TC, I am having trouble deleting your first lengthy posting. You should be able to delete it yourself by clicking on the trash can image at the bottom of that posting.
Thanks. ..Maurice.
TC,
It does not matter what LA county has as law, US Federal law trumps any local law.
Your complaint should be for failing to accommodate your disability. I know that Cali and LA county have very good offices for filing accessibility (disability) complaints.
I fear that when you say you "might blow up" coupled with pain clinics, you may not have your emotions in check, especially if you are dealing with chronic pain.
When you file a complaint, select: "Physical or mental harm that occurred" ==> "Other harm occurred" ==> explain the following; "Further treatment needed, psychological harm occurred, psychological retraumatization occurred, needed treatment was denied"
Here is where to file a Joint Commission complaint.
Here is the LA County office of adults with disabilities. Instructions on filing a complaint.
Here is the Civil Rights Department State of California complaint page.
You stated "The implications behind certain lifestyle choices involved there infuriated me." I suspect that you are part of a protected group. You need to find groups that support your group.
I would start with groups that are working with the (pro) homeless groups and ask members if they can point you to the correct group (if you are not part of the demographics).
Worst case, I would go to one of those pro Palestine marches and talk to the people there about how you are being treated (as a member of a protected group). Those people will know other groups because they work in tandem. These are the types of groups that you want to find.
I live in the real world. My latest had put a disciplinary sheet in the permanent files of 3 residents in New Jersey. A PA was almost fired and I was a heartbeat away from having the head of urology at a teaching hospital losing his license.
You can also contact the California Coalition Against Sexual Assault.
This is just the beginning.
-- Banterings
TC
You raise a valid question as to what I would have done if I thought my underwear had been removed while I was anesthetized. I was probably just being naïve and didn’t really expect my underwear to be removed, but did the gluing to reassure myself. I would have been beyond upset and furious and written letters to the surgical center and had a serious talk with my surgeon. More than likely, nothing would have come from it in terms of punishment and I probably would have been released as a patient.
However, the letters and discussion do serve to make people think of what they did and if I can make them uncomfortable enough, perhaps they might behave differently in the future. I don’t if I would have brave enough to pursue any official complaints but am working on being more assertive. The societal pressures for men to “man-up” and accept things is difficult to surmount.
My issues revolved around being abused by a nurse after the procedure was over and I was in my hospital room for an overnight stay. Soon after, during another procedure, my all-female surgical team invited/allowed in 3 additional women to observe my prepping and draping. The three unauthorized women were not accounted for in the surgical report so either it was falsified or they left prior to the surgeon arriving in theater. I wrote a very strongly worded letter to the director of the surgical center as well as my urologist. When I saw him in person, I had a very heated discussion to let him know how upset I was and what it did to my mental health. I had to repeat the procedure a couple more times and while I did have a female c-arm tech and a female laser tech, I did have a male circulator nurse, a male scrub nurse, and a male anesthesiologist which provided a level of comfort. I regret not pursuing the revocation of the abusive nurse’s license.
Lately, I have been voting with my pocket-book and canceled surgeries at centers that will not accommodate my wishes. I canceled my back surgery at a different surgical center when the coordinator did not even let me finish my sentence asking about a male team or the use of COVR garment. I should have written the doctor to let her know why I canceled my surgery.
I had to call 5 different imaging centers in order to find a male sonographer for a scrotal ultrasound and drive over 100 miles to use the facility. I wrote or talked to the four centers to let them know why I would no longer use their facility for any future imaging needs. Two of them never bothered to respond to my letter. One male director called to give me the old “no other man has ever requested this” excuse and did offer to provide a male chaperone. I did have the male director of one center call and had a very productive conversation. He explained that he did the ultrasound training and while he normally doesn’t perform exams anymore, he would be willing to perform my exam if I needed one in the future. I wrote a very positive letter with my thanks to the center that provided a male sonographer.
It is an uphill battle with the demographics of medical personnel being skewed female, but I am trying to gain partial victories where I can. I do much better when I am awake and in a one-on-one situation versus being knocked out with multiple female participants. The amount and time of exposure makes a difference to me as exposure during a scrotal ultrasound is way more limited than an ureteroscopy for kidney stones. The later requires being placed in stirrups and exposed for the entire duration to everyone in the room.
EM
EM cont'd
I have been fortunate that most of my surgeries have been somewhat elective which gives me the opportunity to pursue accommodations. I am not assertive by nature, and have been visualizing scenarios to prepare myself in case I need to make a stand. For example, if I am in pre-op and have been promised male personnel and a woman shows up explaining that she will now be the provider for whatever excuse, I must be willing to cancel the procedure despite the hassle and pressure that will be brought to bear.
I have even thought of requesting a male chaperone if I ever am presented with a female provider for an intimate procedure. I do not want a chaperone of either sex and it might even be more uncomfortable than having a female provider alone, but if I cause enough extra effort to procure a male chaperone, perhaps the facility would decide it is worth employing a male to do the procedure.
In order to achieve change, men will have to step-up and start demanding change the way women have. Unfortunately, the cultural norms about being “male” often cause men to be our worst enemies. Women are way more supportive of each other and rarely attack other women for being modest. Men are considered “weak” and are often viciously attacked by both men and women for expressing any concerns of modesty. I fear that this philosophy is too deeply ingrained for any changes to occur in the near term.
I hope that I will have the courage someday to take official steps such as those described by Banterings.
EM
EM I want to praise you for your valiant, effort to receive the kind of treatment you deserve but are made to feel you have no right to.
With the ever declining condition of our health care system it is reaching the point that you’re lucky if you can get anyone male or female to treat you. Requesting a particular gender is becoming a larger hurdle than ever!
I know that due to the emotional damage that they have already done to me there is no way I can return and receive the kind of care that I have in the past.
I spend my days now hoping and praying that what ever comes my way takes me out quickly.
There are so many people out there that don’t understand that mentality and to be quite honest neither do I! But I know what the consequences will be if I allow myself to be treated like that.
What I find mine boggling is the amount of people that are dedicated to disrupting holiday celebrations in support of terrorist but won’t lift a finger to help someone from being terrorized.
The science is out there and I have had several psychologists acknowledge the validity and reason behind my aversion to having women tend to me intimately some of it coming from childhood ACE’s. Some from my own moral beliefs. Without a ground swell of protest (not gonna happen) the easiest and cost effective way for them to deal with it is tell you to except their gold standard treatment or go away 😞
EM thanks for your reply. I find myself wincing at the vision of your having to have imagining, scrotal & such. My last scrotal was a trainwreck. It's warrants recounting here, maybe in the future..
I am a medical consumer & chaperones aren't working for my health per se. Thus unacceptable.. But if a female doc is genuinely afraid to be all be alone with an undressed guy, she's going to have to be honest & say that, & I'll respect that. It might be that a third hand is handy for the injection & transducer (though in YouTube it's usual just two hands of the doctor)some sense there. But I totally lose it when I'm lied to. My bullshit meter has always been well calibrated.
My preference is a female doctor, no chaperone. During a preliminary exam, I voluntarily offered to show my inguinal scar & she peeked w/o am assistant or chaperone present. Good start, but who knows if she won't just revise herself after the failed L2 epidural. For that matter, potentially prolonging the against by having me do a separate preliminary visit prior to doing the block. That process might not be over until next Summer.
We all know that an epidural @ L2 is not the origin of my inguinal scar pain, & won't work.. Next step, a US guided inguinal block (never a US guided one before, & it's disgraceful that female staff members of make pain docs barged in while partially -- the last time just to hand me medical release forms to sign. HIS fault, not hers, for failing to put on a bandaide or announcing the end of the injections.
This next inguinal block will have to tie me over for life. The next hurdle is back surgery. Here, L5/S1 are close to my butt crack, not so close to my rectum, & on the other side of my genitals. Common sense tells me that full exposure's unneeded. Past experience tells me that lies & snowjobs will be the authoritative counterarguments.
But in the context of knee scoping, after hearing "elastic waistband risk of electric shock from knee cauterization", " 100% sterility demanded", quick access for emergency catheterization" ,
" high tornequette access" all lies. I suspect more even creative medical rationalizations for forced nudity that's arbitrary
Please, please, pleas make sure that your own pseudonym is present within your text or better at the end. There should be no trouble in typing in the few letter characters and allowing the reader of your text to know who exactly is writing the text. Better still is like Jeff, for example, who has entered his pseudonym within the Blogger.com system and then "Jeff said..." is displayed at the top of the posting immediately after the date.
This request is very important. ..Maurice.
This is Steve. I find something so hypocritical is the medical profession that states that they are professionals. In my situation that I had previously posted the five nurses ( 3 women and 2 men ) violated my dignity and yet apparently not one of them reported the violation to management. This means my letter to hospital will never go anywhere because the so called professionals stick together and vouch for their professionalism. Angry and frustrated! Steve
TC here
Bamterings, call the California Commission against sexual assault & what. WHAT? Get billions of dollars in compensation. Ruin their careers? Get them arrested because of dignity violations that aren't considered sexual assault in the first place.? We've already been through this!
People are evil. The fear of severe consequences is what protects us. Again, I've asked you one pointed question you only run from: if they don't accommodate us, what bad things happen to them?
You got your all male surgical team (which is all you seem to care about) & winning that small single battle seems to have put you in a happy position where you didn't have to pursue matters to the end. The ADA didn't get you your all male team, you found a cooperative staff. "Reasonable accomodation" requests can be medically rebutted on technicalities, that wont & can't be challenged. If male nurses aren't already hired & available for your surgery, neither the justice department or Joint Commission is going to sick the National Guard on them to defend you.
What if you didn't get your male team, what bad things happen to your provider? Lawsuits (don't even go there, it's established fact on this blog that lawyers are for rich people only). Jail? No! Medical board sanctions? Not even for blatant malpractice, or sex abuse (ask the victims of Ed Weismeir, Richard Strauss & Robert Anderson.).
For the last time, WHAT ARE THE DIRE CONSEQUENCES facing non accommodating facilities & doctors. I directed a similar inquiry to EM, & he acknowledged the legitimacy of the question, & responded with intellectual honesty . Why can't you?
Each time I blow up your lame, idealistic arguments, reminding everyone that liberal populist policies have because me so diluted under 40+ years of reactionary rule they arent enforced! Each exchange you get increasingly diffuse, frantically allude to non existing CA social programs.
You know, you seem to be clutching at straws just to comfort yourself about the futility of fighting those who can make up their own rules. I can't continue having these circular discussions. I don't live on your Pollyanna planet where things are a certain way just because they ought to be so. @Jeff is distraught over female nurses, & that singular issue you seem to know EVERYTHING about, so that should be attention to. Aa for me, please stop blowing up my finely calibrated BS meter. I don't need it.
Dude, this ain't the beginning, this is the end of your stupid bullshit. I don't want to know you exist.
TC
* You just don't get it . With you it's all about running to imaginary agencies to rectify unfixable matters I've had no major operations blood transfusion, so why in the Hell should I have to worry about HEP C? No tattoos, no needle sharing, no promiscuity, no etc etc. I am "Mr Clean" & my medical intake history documents that. So can you understand the insult that was?
Now if I ever see an Aids or Hep C snuck in my blood panel, they'll be fired as I fired everybody else.
Furthermore, after all the pain clinics that won't treat me, it would be medical suicide to even hint at "reasonable accommodation" to bolster my prior written request for no passive assistants (male or female) during my US Inguinal nerve block -- unless I'm prepared to have that bluff called.
BTW, I left this blog pretty disgruntled last year. Since I've come back, it's not encouraging to encounter such naive, foolish intellectual dishonesty. I've had it here.
Steve you're absolutely right & thanks for keeping it real. They cover each other's backs. It's your word against theirs, & the "Joint Commisiin" medical board, nurses licensing board, County Dept of Public health (that's most responsible for the overseeing the facility & the agency to write to) DOESN'T CARE. Sadly, to compound the problem, what they did to you probably didn't violate any existing laws or rules . They really don't have to lie. They can brazenly admit to laughing, pulling your covers off, adjusting your penis & they're still covered.
You can proactively ask for reasonable accommodation (best future tactic) but in the end, proving descrimination backfires. The ADA doesn't pave the way for us to demand anything we want.
Decision making in medical business operates on a financial risk/reward basis. If you can't sue them.into.near bankruptcy, where's their risk in refusing to accommodate your request, prioritizing your modesty above staff expediency & morale? (Yes morale. Hospital administrators & supervisors know exactly what goes on, & if humiliating male patients keeps nurses happily entertained, why mess with the status quo? You're going to be the one looked upon as the disruptive party in this farce, not the nurses. )
By Y"all!
TC
Steve, I am guessing that 4 of the 5 nurses that came into the room were either nursing students or new hires being oriented to that dept. The night after my cardiac ablation, the nurse that was checking the wound site and scanning my bladder (until I could urinate on my own) had a young RN accompanying her but not doing anything, She was introduced as new to the dept and being oriented to it. Students & new hires are not going to rock the boat in a healthcare or any other setting. The risks to them personally are too high, and in healthcare they likely have already been socialized to not see the privacy of male patients as mattering much.
When I had my 1st bladder cancer surgery, while in pre-op, 5 medical students walked in (4 female, 1 male), said what they were and that they'd be observing my surgery. No intro as to their names or if it was OK for them to observe. They too were giggling about something which made me feel like I was to be their entertainment for the day.
Much of what we talk about comes down to definitions. It seems that to healthcare staff, being professional means being polite and maintaining a proper gameface. Respecting privacy is equivalent to whatever is convenient for them. Our definition of minimizing exposure to that which is necessary in terms of extent, duration, and audience vs theirs is like ships passing in the night. Many of the examples that we give they simply don't see as anyone having done something wrong.
TC & Biker - The five nurses never interacted with me verbally during the entire exposure! Something must have been really funny because they were all laughing and whispering to each other. So they might have been new hires - I wouldn’t know. They left me completely uncovered even after they completed their task. I finally get covered back up and at the very end one of the male nurses spoke and said that the doctor will see me shortly. It was very uncomfortable and definitely not professional. Steve
Dr. B., I have been reading all the comments written by TC. I know you wanted me to join this discussion bc of the political reasons but...
TC, my husband was both medically and sexually assaulted. It wasn't something like he didn't want a female nurse/doctor as he had had them all his life up to that point. He was 67 when it happened. He also had prostate cancer abt 13 yrs before this so he had had his penis/testicles shown to plenty of females. I really take offense that you seem to infer that men do not have the right to say they have been sexually assaulted bc that takes away from women. I call that BS! In this country especially during the past 5 or so years, the climate has emboldened many sleeping females into believing they are entitled to harm males especially when a male is most vulnerable as in hospitalization.
I also see you mock/insult those like Archie who try to bring about solutions. My husb & I tried many of those resources & none worked. Every frickin' lawyer wouldn't take his case but said he had basis on many, many pts but for various reasons they said no. We tried every board, every agency, etc. but nothing. However, Archie has had success with other cases. Bc my husband is a 67 yr old white man, no one cared abt his harm enough to address it. He was harmed by rabid Bernie supporters during the time MeToo was saying old white men are the root of all evil. Our solution is to no longer seek medical care that we cannot control such as in hospital or ER care. This is not for the faint of the heart but it's all we can do at this time.
I have read your stories of blacks & women being abused by cops but for every one of those stories there are also stories of white men also being abused but their stories do not make the headlines just like most stories of medical harm aren't heard. I do a weekly nationwide radio broadcast along w/ it being aired on several media sites with my partner, Cindy, to expose medical harm. Instead of just yelling & screaming at those who have been harmed at least I am making my voice heard.
I have labeled the medical community as the medical mafia. For now, they hold most of the cards. They are primarily motivated by power, greed, & control. They control the media, the judicial system, & the government which I may remind you is liberal in nature. They decide what stories of harm are told & what harmed patience are allowed to get any type of justice via malpractice. I know of a woman right now who will at some point commit suicide bc of being medically harmed & if she accepted the "settlement" she would be abt 100K in debt by the time the vultures had their share. We were sent a letter by Medicare saying if my husband won, they wanted their money back from the procedure he did not consent to have. This is the cold, hard reality of our world.
Yes, there are things to do to protect yourself but they are not 100%. My husband now has a very advanced Advanced Directive but we know they would violate it in a flash & we probably couldn't get legal representation if they did. However, I will keep educating people abt the dangers of how medical care is delivered hoping that we won't be forced into playing Russian Roulette meaning we no longer have to worry abt the intentional harm they are freely giving disguised as necessary medical protocol/care.
I know you are angry. I am angry but attacking other harmed people does not help but it does allow the united medical community to keep on doing what they do best and that is to harm without recourse.
JR, I am not angry with what is written by my visitors to this ethics topic. I am pleased, as a former active physician and medical school educator that my participants here have another way of expressing their experiences and feelings to others.
Unfortunately, I am not getting views from those in the medical profession. I can only hope that some of my visitors here are from that profession and while not responding are becoming conscious of what is going on in the interpretations and feelings of what is being posted here by our participating active and/or former patients or the poster's family members.
You deserve to ventilate and what you write here may support the coping with the emotional upsets of others reading here.
Thanks. ..Maurice.
Dr. B.,
I didn't say you were angry but rather was addressing TC. And yes, harmed patients and their families do deserve to ventilate but unfortunately there aren't many places this may be done so I am grateful you do host this site. I do think that as part of the medical community you should be able to reach to some of your community so that some of us may politely interact with them so both sides can reach a better understanding and maybe change could start to happen. As it is, now is more of a combat situation as because patients are mere mortals trying to communicate with a community that believes it rules over us.
I just had my epidural gratuitously cancelled at my pain clinic, s I came back here in a foul mood looking for a pissing match.
JR, we've crossed paths before on Facebook. True to form, you could only put words in my mouth, the only basis you have for any argument.here
LEARN TO READ! I never said that men shouldn't say that they've encountered medical sexual abuse. I did assert that any man or women asking for special treatment under the ADA, risks red flagging themselves as potential "problem patients". It can all backfire because medical businesses primarily want money & secondarily avoid pitential lawsuits at all cost -- ironic you can't really sue them anyway*
So you're only calling yourself out on any BS, & from there on it was downhill: circular reasoning; false equivalents inarticulate drivel, all out of context Ultimately you only proved me right:. NO RECOURSE AFTER EXHAUSTING THE OPTIONS.
As for my "mocking" Archie? I do want intellectual dishonesty, & it's not complicated. If you say to a doctor, "I'm going to write a letter of complaint", the doctor"s smirking response will be..., and what?" (You're also gone, the MB doesn't require an actual reason for termination of services.)
"So Banterings", I asked him, "and what....," A legitimate question after offering letter writing as a panacea. No answer, no focus, no continuity. Only more tangential allusions to broken down agencies, & even those that don't exist.
Proof positive is we are all here complaining in this circle jerk, instead of ruining bad doctors & medical facilities, putting them in jail by testifying in criminal sexual abuse trials, getting huge $$ compensation, driving Ferraris, while thanking banterings for showing us the way. Where are the David vs Goliath success stories here? So what if some got a male surgical team? When turned down, fight the good fight to it's ultimate denouement, & see what happens.
So I asked EM the same question, & he had the decency to reply, with an honest answer, & conceding that his surgical team wasn't really forced to meet his demands at the threat of letters. They just gave it to him.
But otherwise, if you offer Messiah complexed claims & solutions & don't back it up, productive discourse comes to screeching halt & becomes a mockery of itself.
TC
* For the literate here: I had a neurectomy consult with a UCLA surgeon. After my attempt to expel a "fellow" as an exam chaperone, we compromised & he went behind a curtain. Reasonable. The surgeon documented my background using the term (w/o my solicited definition) PTSD from the urology malpractice that brought me there, multiple sexual misconduct incidents, particularly a urologist's. He referred me to a particular UCLA pain doctor. Good start with PTSD as his observation.
Prior to the visit, I emailed Patient Experience with reasonable accomodations requests requests, based on the documented PTSD, also pointing out that in all common sense situations they should apply anyway. 1) to opt out of the teaching program, 2) chaperones go behind a screen 3) no underwear removal for non intimate procedures 4) intimate procedures are not to devolve into spectatorship by non-actively participating assistants.
Similar requests for reasonable accomodations blew things up at LLUMC & EMC..At EMC, the justice department dismissed my age, PTSD & Rigiin as "Unsubstantiated" after record tampering.
.
Also, I shouldn't have to qualify my assertions about conservatism eroding programs that work to our advantage.
I cant believe hearing here that the government is looking betal because Fox news & the corporate media say it over & over again.
New Deal policies built the middle class & looked out for the interest of the little guy. The first shot fired across the bow at the working class was when Jimmy Carter (a wealthy gentleman peanut farmer) embraced Thatcherism deregulated the trucking industry . Jimmy Carter was only liberal at oreign policy.
Reagan was worse, started with firing PATCO. Subsequently the Wagner act is DOA, Unions & pensions are looted by wall street
The Clintons are absolute corporate sellouts. Bill Clinton conspired with the Republicans to destroy Glas-Stiegal & brought back hedge funds that caused the big crash of 2008. Do you even know about Glass Stiegal & why the Roosevelt Administration had to make hedge funds illegal? It gave 60 years of no bank panics.
Obama voted in phase with his republicans throughout his tenure as an Illinois Senator. The corporations have him millions & they got back billions.
The supreme court? They appointed Bush to the throne in 2000, & subsequently are stacked with conservatives for years to come. They have been, & are committed to turning this country into a theocratic police state rolling back all the political advances of the 20th century, & it's a done deal that not only rape victims will carry the reminder of the sexual assault to term, but will also ensure those facing pregnancy health crises can die in labor.
Biden is no Bernie Sanders, but he's the least corporate democrati party president we've had in decades.
The corporate media, those running the show, have whipped people into a hate Biden frenzy . All of it lies, even projecting dementia on him. It's disgusting to see the Sheople in a zombie trance, "Biden, Biden, Biden" blaming him for everything.
WHAT IGNORANCE HERE!
Tc
TC,
It appears you don't comprehend that sexual assault doesn't have to be the typical definition of penetration when you said, " She was a no call, no show for the counseling, & if I went, I'd have made a mockery of severe sexual assault on women." My husband was sexually assaulted and if he had decided to talk to a rape crisis center, it would not have a mockery on sexual assault of women.
As far as your political rant, Biden was installed and Biden even admitted that what he did best was to cheat--find the sound bit. Way back when, I used to think Biden was funny but now I find nothing he does funny. He will probably be found to be the most corrupt politicians ever and that he has sold us out time and time again. As for FDR, he is the one who I identify as the father of entitlements. Around 50% of the US does not pay federal taxes so what the means is what is considered the "middle" class is the one paying the bulk. Biden seems hell bent as divider-in-chief to make sure he does away with the middle class as he continues to make friends in high places even more rich.
Back in the day, I liked Bill Clinton until it became clear what his agenda was. I never liked Bush nor O'Bama as they both were working on their own personal agendas. For sure, Biden is an owned man. So many big corporations are owned by China and Biden appears to do their bidding. Both Biden and Sanders have become very rich men for men who never have had a job outside of the public sector. Only corrupt men/women become rich as politicians. If both of those men believe in sharing wealth, why aren't they sharing theirs with us but instead they have huge mansions which are not green friendly and fly private jets. No one is projecting dementia on Biden as it is there out in the open for everyone to see. As for blaming him, have you been to the grocery store lately? Have you talked to small business owners like mom and pop restaurants? The media covers up for him. If you flip from CNN to ABC to MSNBC, etc. you will hear the same talking point each day. Instead of a word of the day, it is a talking point of the day. Journalism has always been biased but in today's world it is ridiculous.
I do not believe abortion should be used as a means of birth control such as the lady who says it should be who has had 24 or so abortions but it should be available for certain situations such as rape, incest, mother's life at risk or baby is not viable. I don't agree with extremists on either side.
Why don't you write Joe about how medical care is being delivered to you? I wrote Bernie and guess what he didn't care. I wrote many, many politicians and none care but I will keep writing bc otherwise is to surrender and I don't surrender. The head of the senate in my state pretended he didn't know that patients are still subjected to unconsented for pelvic/rectal exams. I nail him at every event I see him at and yet he never follows through with the mtgs he has promised so my guess encounter will start with him not keeping his promise. I tried the polite way so now I will do it the way of my old union days.
Oh, BTW, it is HIPAA (not HIPPA as many wrongly label it) so hopefully when you talked to HHS you referred to the correct program. I can also tell you why going through Lavantra didn't work as again you had the wrong agency as it is Livanta. (Before you insult my reading skills, check your own is my advice.) Don't worry, it wouldn't have mattered anyways as I have tons of paperwork from Livanta saying we were being "unreasonable" bc we were upset he was both medically/sexually assaulted. Livanta said he should just be glad he didn't die & that drs have the right to do whatever they wanted. So much for HHS protecting the people it serves--the taxpayers as clearly they serve the medical mafia.
Also, I responded to so very few on Facebook so again I believe you have the wrong social media outlet or wrong person.
Tc. Whoever replaced Trump is gonna be blamed for anything and everything. But let's not make this group about that. There are people who completely voted different from how I do but have the same mindset we do about medical abuse . I promise there are Trump supporters who are good. I don't understand how but can
Here we go again (as previously discussed on this blog thread regarding Patient Dignity):
Politics and the political parties being responsible for the misbehaviors in the interaction between members of the professional medical community and their patients. I wonder if political parties and who is in charge of them have much of anything to do with the concerned misbehaviors. Is this really a political issue between Republicans, Democrats or other political parties? Does anyone know that discussion of governmental politics and the parties are really part of the communication between medical professionals and their patients. Really? ..Maurice.
I’m sure many of you have experienced the uncaring results from the medical community. Many people feel the medical system sees their patients as a means to their existence! We have become an object for making an improved financial bottom line. I have said this before, they do care about their patients but all to often it’s not for the right reasons. The more the patient becomes an object the easier they become disenfranchised of their dignity as a human. I read the following from Harvard how empathy plays a role in quality health care. You might find this interesting and helpful to read. https://postgraduateeducation.hms.harvard.edu/trends-medicine/building-empathy-structure-health-care
My name is Steve
None of the issues discussed here are political in the sense of Democrat vs Republican. Neither party even has a platform as concerns patient orivacy, dignity, or staffing gender let alone having differing platforms. They have all they can do contending with healthcare availability & affordability, each in their own way and neither having been able to solve those basic problems. What we discuss is not on their radar, nor is it likely to be. Why? Because availability & affordability are far larger problems as are many other societal problems that they are faced with.
Yes a handful of States have banned unconsented pelvic exams of sedated patients, but that is an issue specific to women and easily understood by society to be wrong. Even then it has been an uphill battle to protect women from those exams. The healthcare experience of males is not deemed a societal problem or priority by the political class, the healthcare industry, the media, or by recognized interest groups that have the ear of anyone in a position to do anything about it.
With women now the majority of medical school students, we are charging towards physician ranks being female dominated as older male physicians retire and are replaced by women. If anything, women's groups are complaining the transition isn't happening fast enough. They don't talk about the specialties where they already dominate but rather complain about the ones in which they don't.
Men can speak up, file complaints, write letters, post on forums where healthcare staff might read & learn, and vote with their feet if that is a viable option that allows them to still access needed healthcare, but we're otherwise on our own.
Biker,
I generally say pelvic/rectal exams bc male patients are victims of the mass student rectal exams just as females are of the pelvic exams. Both need to be addressed but most only believe this type of medical rape only happen to women.
Dr. B.,
I believe politics plays a major part in how healthcare is delivered. The medical mafia is so very powerful and well-funded they are able to control politicians of both parties. I have said before that one female state legislator told me this. She said if the medical lobby did not want certain changes to happen, they would not happen. Politicians love the lobby monies they receive and most are not welling to give that up for the good of their voters.
I have also said countless times that I do believe the political climate contributes to how certain patient groups are treated. In the past 6 or so years, we have seen so much hate speech being directed on Republicans and older white males that I believe it is reflected in the care they receive. I know from years ago despite all the propaganda that medical staff leave their personal views at the door that medical staff do act on their personal biases. I have seen them label a family member who is an alcoholic as not worthy of medical care even though this member had a higher educational level than most of them and lived in an more expensive house than most of them. Years ago we moved to an area bc we loved the scenery that is thought to be mostly Republican. I believe those Bernie supporters thought they had the right to abuse/assault my husband bc it was during the time of MeToo and Kavannaugh when they were being told older white men were the root of all evil. The medical system over the years has changed from being more Republican to now being more Democrat. Nurses have generally always been made up of more Democrats.
An example of the hate is one poster here on this blog (I believe I know their identity even though there was no identity) was spouting hate when they said, "...I promise there are Trump supporters who are good. I don't understand how but can." If I were a patient, I wouldn't want a caregiver who has doubts I am a good person just bc of the way I vote as clearly people like this believe they are superior. It is sad that the current US President and his minions in the media are preaching this sick hate day in and day out. There are those who believe what they hear and don't really do the work to discover what they are being sold is untrue.
To answer one of your points, yes I have had some medical providers discuss politics with me. I have had them even discuss how dissatisfied they are with medicine in today's world. As I said before, the one nurse on social media discussed her hatred of some of her patients as well as her political beliefs which gave me insight on why she decided to harm my husband. We saw in 2020, the summer of violent, unrestrained riots that nurses in uniforms were participating in violent actions against cops. Was this before or after their shifts? Should those who participated in violence against cops be treating cops being injured at those riots? I say NO. Would they like others admit they purposely do things to bring pain and suffering to patients who piss them off? So yes, politics are certainly part of how medical care is delivered. Right now the with so much hate being spread, the climate is prime for medical harm.
JR, I was actively teaching a groups of 5 first and second year medical students during the years from the late 1980s up until 6 years ago and I can assure you that rectal, genital and breast examinations were not performed on patients by an individual student or a group of students. However, these exams were performed on a strictly educational session on "standardized patients" who, as I explained in previous postings on this topic, were paid "professional patients" who allowed each student an opportunity to perform these examinations (male instructor patients for recto-genital and female instructor patients for breast exam) and special female volunteers for pelvic examinations. This has been my experience for these student learnings exercises. ..Maurice.
Dr. B.,
Yes, CA is one of the states with the ban on this type of medical rape. Some interesting articles out there talking abt the damage it does.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7223770/
Cindy and I talked abt this one on one of our shows: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/17/health/pelvic-medical-exam-unconscious.html This was a nurse who had one done to her. She felt like she had been raped. Wonder if she ever warned her patients this could happen?
https://www.pahouse.com/InTheNews/NewsRelease/?id=131524
My question would be why this practice is still happening when it is clear that so many are against it? I would say that hospital admins want to say money by using patients for this purpose. Standardized patients cost and affects the bottom line. So much for compassionate care.
I came back only to post a link for shighkes. But Steve, I think you're missing the point. Programs such as the ADA were liberal programs that have been openly vilified by conservative piticians as a nuisance to corporate profits. "Republican light" democratssuch as Clinton & Obama are stealthy, & continue not to advocate for, let alone resuscitate these programs. My assertion here is the ADA has no teeth, & will not change into some action hero costume to rescue us.
Again, my dealings with medical facilities are literally winding down to an end & will soon force my ultimate bluff.
Here's what I had planned on posting a link on. before becoming turned of by this plotanna idealism It's funny to those of us who didn't experience it. (You'll hate me more for that).
The content of this link is interminable, & the last half is most relevant
https://puericil.netlify.app/fna/2018/reports_forced_nudity_01to02
Yes the reply to Steve about politics & the link to open, spectatorship of naked gymnasium boy's physicals, & live sex Ed models for girls in the nude swimming era is mine
.
Is mine TC that is
What happened with boy's physicals, mandatory swimming in the buff etc in the 1970's and earlier is only relevant in the sense that it was the societal norm from which current societal norms evolved. None of what some of us experienced growing up back then happens now. Schools know it would result in lawsuits and charges of child abuse.
On the political issue, the things that have long been discussed here do not seem to vary between red vs blue States, nor between urban/suburban areas vs small town/rural areas. Healthcare is universally female-centric throughout the US. Whether an area is D dominated or R dominated or is balanced between the two does not change whether male patients are afforded meaningful privacy or dignity consideration. Yes it is possible that individual staff members might consciously or unconsciously act out their politics, but in the aggregate the things we discuss seem fairly universal.
Biker
If you don't think politics have anything to do with what is discussed on this blog , you are delusional . Just look at what party supports boys in girls sports and their locker rooms and showers . They're sick and so are the people that support them .
I went to high school in the 60's and we never swam nude in the pool . That was stopped several years earlier a long with the nude swimming at the sports clubs . I always thought of that as a group of perverts checking out the fresh meat .
Al
My political assertion is the ADA was undermined.by corporate republicans & democrats & that leaves us defenseless & we can't remain in denial about it. .
The post does show a horrible bias against makes, during the nude swimming era which conservative courts held up. . Presently, there is something analogous today, inflicting in public school tranny biological males in dressing areas..That's "all inclusive" PC Liberalism at it's most extreme.
My bubble was bursted & I am being driven to call my bluff. A surgery center in Victorville confirmed to me its policy of allowing undergarments in arthroscopic meniscus tear surgery. Saying they supply their own mesh underwear, but the surgeon if my choice is flexible about letting the patient keep his own underwear on.
Today I saw the surgeon, & he warned me that particular facility covertly removes patient" s underwear after anesthesia (NOT AS PER HIS WISHES) & they put them in back on OR Recovery prior to the anesthesia wearing off.
Things have gotten so much worse since my last scope in 99. I'm looking further into this, but I'm running out of options. This will be an ultimate deal breaker for me.
)TC to biker last comment)
AL and TC, transgender sports & locker room matters are very political issues but sports & locker room issues are not healthcare matters. Transgender transition healthcare is political but that is the only aspect of healthcare where we see political differences. How I am treated as a patient is not affected by who is on the local girls swim team or in their locker room, and how I, as a non-transgender person, am treated as a patient is unaffected by the political debate concerning transgender healthcare services.
As I noted there is no apparent difference when it comes to patient privacy & dignity matters whether one is in a red or blue State or in an urban or rural setting, or in a large or small hospital. Neither party questions the healthcare mantras that healthcare staff right down to the newly minted medical asst. are professionals for whom delivering healthcare services are purely clinical 100% of the time, that healthcare is gender neutral, that there are never ever sexual overtones in the delivery of healthcare, and that there is never any reason for a patient to be embarrassed when receiving healthcare. Neither party questions the non-physician demographic status quo as problematic for male patients.
It is a well orchestrated dance where all concerned make believe they don't see the elephant in the room. Patient privacy & dignity matters in the US is a reflection of the underlying culture, not of current party political differences.
Biker
Some people are standing in the forests but can't see the trees ? Would you care to explain to me how a certain hospital chain employed all the female ob/gyn's ? That was over 55 years ago . About 20 years ago we checked to see how many males were employed as nurses in imaging and urology . Most hospitals said none but this chain had 2 in imaging and 6 in urology at 2 different hospitals. Was this by accident or a choice the hospital management made to help please the males of the area . Yes , you had to travel to reach those chains . Just so you know I have more wolves and bears living in my zip code than practicing healthcare people . You may not want to believe that liberal idea's have taken over our universities and control them but you know what they say . You get what you vote for . Want change ? Stop what you are doing or shut up and just except what they want to give you . With the government giving the hospitals 800 billion dollars a year to operated they don't really need your money to stay open . And yes , red or blue does make a difference . Which cities sponsor naked body painting and naked bike rides ? Hint . You won't find this happening in rural America because it would get you in jail . Here's another hint . You want to act like a thug I wouldn't do it in rural America . We like guns and we all have them . In my state we are allowed to open carry . Yes I know that pisses off a lot of Liberals . Too bad . Once again . You get what you vote for .
Al
TC,
I am waiting for a new volume to reply.
-- Banterings
Banterings, your wish has been accomplished.
Volume 129 has been established and Volume 128 IS NOW CLOSED. You and all my contributors must now go to Volume 129 to continue this topic.
https://bioethicsdiscussion.blogspot.com/2024/01/preserving-patient-dignity-formerly.html
..Maurice.
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