"I Hate Doctors": Chapter 2
With regard to how patients size up their doctors on this thread I take no sides but I am interested to read the facts which lead to this emotional response. Ventilation is great..but as I have repeatedly noted on this blog, ventilation to blog visitors is less constructive then letting your doctor know how you feel and particularly explain to him or her why you feel this way. Remember posting to this thread--no names of doctors, nurses, hospitals, etc. No names please.
ADDENDUM 3-10-2009: I think the following Essay is of value for patients to take into consideration factors that lead to an unprofessional doctor and subsequent patient anger and what doctors ought to consider.
TEXAS MEDICAL BOARD BULLETIN
The newsletter of the Texas State Board of Medical Examiners
Fall 2004 Volume 2, No.1
On the Sagging of Medical Professionalism
by Herbert L. Fred, MD, MACP
For the past two decades, medicine has been a profession in retreat,plagued by bureaucracy,by loss of autonomy,by diminished prestige,and by deep personal dissatisfaction.' These ills would be bad enough by themselves.But another malady confronts us-the sagging of our professionalism.
Medical professionalism defies precise definition. Fundamentally, however, it boils down to service in the patient's best interest. Among its central elements are (1) commitment to excellence; (2) altruism, with service before self-interest; (3) avoidance of harm; (4)trustworthiness; (5) pursuit of truth based on scientific and humanistic criteria; (6) close cooperation with others in the health care field; and (7) humility.2
In this essay, I address our sagging professionalism and offer my thoughts on its clinical manifestations, consequences, causes, and cures.
Clinical Manifestations and Consequences
To me, the most common, and yet most subtle expression of betrayed professionalism is
serving ourselves before serving our patients. By doing so, we sacrifice the very core of doctoring humanism. And as a result, the patient-physician bond becomes weakened-or never even forms. Additional manifestations include abuse of power, arrogance, lack of conscientiousness, and conflicts of interest.3
Certain other types of behavior deserve special attention because they are sometimes
interpretable as being dishonest.4 Failure to take charge is a common example. In such cases, the attending physician shirks his or her responsibility, deferring to an army of consultants, each managing a part of the body with no one managing the whole. This buck-passing5 frequently leads to a host of ill-advised activities-more consultations,inappropriate testing, undocumented diagnoses, over-prescribing of medications, uncalled-for procedures, needlessly prolonged hospitalizations, and unnecessary office visits.The consultants in these cases commonly shirk their responsibility as well. Although ideally positioned to halt this medical merry-go-round, they ride it instead. Moreover,those with a "gimmick" use it, even when they know it isn't indicated. And let us not forget the fraudulent reimbursement claims to Medicaid and Medicare or those physicians who, attracted by remuneration and perhaps by a desire for public recognition, serve as expert witnesses even though they clearly are not qualified for the role.
Finally, most physicians simply remain silent when they know or suspect a colleague to be emotionally disturbed, a substance abuser, or just plain incompetent. This reluctance to get involved is particularly deplorable when they know or suspect that an associate is cheating or lying.
Causes
Clearly, numerous factors contribute to our sagging professionalism. Heading the list in my opinion is a change in society's overall priorities and values. Old-fashioned hard work, devotion to duty, and pursuit of excellence have taken a back seat to an emphasis on limited work hours and quests for financial and other types of personal gains. As a result, people at all levels-including many physicians-are satisfied with mediocrity. In fact, mediocrity has become the standard. Given this environment, no wonder our professionalism sags.
External forces largely beyond our control also playa role. Examples are the myriad
constraints imposed by insurance companies, the incessant pressures resulting from
federally mandated regulations, the glut of "for-profit-not-for-patient" hospital administrators,the lawsuits lurking around every corner, and the reams of paperwork
required. Attending to these various demands cuts deeply into the time we could
otherwise spend attending to our patients. And complicating the picture are human
frailties; especially ignorance, greed, fear of being wrong, and the need for
aggrandizement.
Cures
Can we remedy our sagging professionalism? Only-Insofar as we are wiflfrigto be role
models of integrity and honesty for each other. Only if we show commitment,
compassion, competence, candor, and common sense. Only if we understand and
believe that medicine is a calling, not a business. Only if we strive diligently to restore,preserve, and promote the human element in medicine. Only if we look at, listen to, and talk with our patients, working as hard and as long as it takes to ensure their welfare. Only if we always put our patients first.
Final Thought
I leave the reader with a quotation from Bela Schick (1877-1967), renowned
Hungarian pediatrician and bacteriologist: First, the patient, second the patient, third the patient, fourth the patient, fifth the patient,
and then maybe comes science. We first do everything for the patient 6
Not only do his words capture the essence of this essay, but they serve to remind us
of the ruling principle of our profession.
References
1) luger, A. Dissatisfaction with medical practice. New Engl J Med 2004; 350:69-75.
2) Bryan CS, Brett AS, Saunders DE Jr, Khushf G, Fulton, GB. Professionalism. In:
Medical Ethics and Professionalism: A Synopsis for Students and Residents. Center for
Bioethics and Medical Humanities. University of South Carolina; 2004: 13.
3) ibid, p. 14.
4) Fred HL, Robie P. Dishonesty in medicine. South MedJ 1984; 77:1221-22.
5) Fred, HL. Passing the buck. South MedJ 1982; 75:1164-65.
6) Strauss MB. Familiar Medical Quotations. Boston, Mass: Little, Brown and
Company; 1968:374.
Dr. Fred is a Professor, Department of Internal Medicine The University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston. He received the American College of Physicians
Distinguished Teacher Award for 2004. The Board thanks Dr. Fred for providing this essay.
This is Chapter 2. The first chapter can be reviewed at this link. The first chapter has reached such a number of responses that I think it is wise in order to simplify reading the commentary and not to lose comments as has happened with very large number of comments on other threads, I have now closed the first chapter to any further posting. Continue the discussions here. ..Maurice.
Graphic- An appropriate example of feelings for this thread from Ploomy.com
NOTICE: AS OF TODAY AUGUST 26, 2010 "I HATE DOCTORS: CHAPTER 2" WILL BE CLOSED FOR FURTHER COMMENTS. YOU CAN CONTINUE POSTING COMMENTS ON “I HATE DOCTORS: CHAPTER 3."
posted by Maurice Bernstein, M.D. @ 8:48:00 PM
145 comments
145 Comments:
Hmmm, that photo is hideous. Is it supposed to represent a patient who hates their doctor? It certainly grabs your attention.
AG
AG, what does the picture tell you and do you feel that it represents emotions "over the top"? If you have read the comments in Chapter 1, you may find many with implied emotions which might be reflected in this graphic. Could it be that in reality, no patient who is angry with his or her physician carries an anger as gross as in the graphic? Could it be that some of the harsh comments on this thread actually are too harsh for the actual circumstances and that the expressions of some of the visitors are indeed exaggerated for the effect on other visitors to the blog? What is personal hate? Is it a denial that some other patients may find the physician tolerable and even helpful? I think it might be of interest in this conversation to change the subject of the hate topic from discussing the physician to discussion of the needs,motivations and reactions or responses of the patient to the doctor-patient relationship. ..Maurice.
Well, I could say I have a love/hate relationship with doctors in general, based on a boatload of personal experiences.
I hate the ones who are pompous asses who think they're so superior to their patients, the kind who think all their fancy words and instruments and such give them "power" over their patients, and they abuse it for their own personal gain.
I hate the ones that are so incompetent they don't know enough to walk away from a patient whose situation is obviously out of their realm of expertise...and that patient suffers and/or dies because of that incompetence.
One idiot like this cost a close family member her life at a too young age...and every time I see his face in a local commercial I want to reach through the screen and smack it!)
I also hate doctors who don't know enough to do what's called for in a particular patient's situation because they think that patient's life isn't worthy of saving. Docs like this almost cost me my life because they were sure I'd wind up so disabled I wouldn't have a life worth living.
But the one who knew better is why I grew up also loving the idea of doctors....people who cared enough to work for the patient's best interests and wished them to be happy and healthy and whole. As a patient I've seen the best and the worst medicine has to offer...and it only made me realize that for as high upon a pedestal as people might want to put them, the docs are as human as the rest of us. Now if only that didn't wind up harming patients...
Loving and hating ... both of those are pretty strong emotions.
I've met doctors that I knew I would never be able to trust with my medical care, but I didn't hate them. I've met a few who were arrogant, or condescending, and one in particular who was very hurtful and unprofessional. Those are people that I just stopped seeing. I still can't say that I hate them, however, I just refuse to have to deal with a physician that I don't trust, or can't respect. Healthcare is way too important for that sort of thing.
The doctors that I continue to see are not faultless, they make mistakes, have bad hair days, are sometimes distracted, but you can tell that they're trying their best. That's all anyone can do. We need to remember that our physicians are not automatons ... they sometimes go to work when they're not feeling well, etc. ... we need to remember that they aren't immune to life's vicissitudes.
I think there are far more good, honest doctors than there are bad ones. I also think that being human, they each have their own character, tolerance for fatigue, etc. ...
Rather than love/hate, I think my own approach is more trust and respect vs distrust.
Dr. Bernstein ... I agree that the photo is hideous. Somehow, I can't seem to associate it in any way with the medical profession ... thank heaven.
Moof, the graphic wasn't intended to represent a physician.. it was supposed to represent visually the emotions of the folks writing that they hated their doctors. Maybe I exaggerated the degree of anger and hatred that has been expressed on this blog. ..or ?maybe not! ..Maurice.
Dr. Bernstein, I gathered that what I was seeing what a discontented patient ... and not a doc ... (whew!)
I think that a lot of the anger or dislike comes from a feeling of helplessness on realizing that our bodies will not follow our wills - they deceive us, betray us ... and when we seek help, we're told things that we don't agree with (or better yet, simply don't want to accept!) ... those feelings of fear and helplessness can transfer themselves to the messenger of bad news, or to the physician who may well need to make things a lot more uncomfortable before they can get better.
For the most part, I don't believe that their anger is actually aimed at the doctor himself, who is often someone they're never met before.
I remember when I was first diagnosed with my own chronic problems. One day I was fine except for a bit pain, and my feet and hands swelling .. and hadn't seen a doc in years and years. The next day, after seeing a doc, I felt as if my life had come to end overnight. It took me a while to appreciate that these fellows hadn't "roped me in", but rather, they had saved my life.
I can understand how some people might continue to dwell on the anger that comes from the really frightening feeling of helplessness which can accompany needing to accept care for a medical problem. It's the most personal interaction ... sometimes even more personal than with a spouse.
I would think, also, that those who are able to maintain that kind of misplaced anger/fear/resentment would also be the ones who end up with a worse outcome. They would quite likely not be as willing to work with the doctor, and so might not improve ... and if they don't, they wouldn't put the blame on themselves - but rather, on the doc. It can be a vicious circle.
The world is more and more like that, in general. Those who do good deeds, look out for others, want to help those who are suffering ... are often breaking their empathy over a solid rock-face of suspicion and derision. No one seems to be able to accept that not everyone is waiting to fleece them, and that empathy is still alive. Whatever the outcome, it's quite likely that the physician did all he could, and that he's done so even when he was faced with anger he didn't earn, name calling he tried to overlook ... and putting his humanity aside, he goes on to treat the ungrateful patient anyway.
I think that many patients need more education where health matters are concerned. A lot of medicine looks like Voodoo to those who really don't understand. I believe it's time to leave basic educational tracts in the waiting room, and also, that docs try to never skip a chance to educate his patients, or have someone else do the teaching for him.
Healthcare is a partnership, and it won't function well unless each concerned individual is willing to "work as a team".
Moof, you raised an interesting point that perhaps other visitors can comment about. It is that perhaps part of the expressed anger (or even all) might be really a disappointment and anger toward oneself regarding the illness and symptoms which has befallen that patient. Rather than adding to the painful burden already carried because of the illness, the person, instead, expresses the anger outwardly particularly to the doctor. The deficiencies the patient finds in the doctor may simply be the patient's own lack of education about the illness or understanding the norms or standards by which mostly all doctors practice or issues such as missed diagnosis, prognosis or response to therapy upon which virtually any doctor may have no capacity or probability to overcome. What do my visitors think? ..Maurice.
My father worked for the world health organization and my step-father formed public policy. I come from a family that tries to improve the world. When I go to a doctor, I can defend myself, but my daughter who has always been treated with respect is now in jeopardy because of a health issue which is being treated by her G.P. as some kind of joke. He's broken the doctor's privacy code and spoken about me and what I've said to him about her. He's said that maybe he wanted a brain tumor, when she called him to find out about her MRI which was clear. There's more, but I've found that more chances for him to help don't change anything to his attitude. I'm seeking disciplinary action as clearly he thinks it's fun to toy with young women. Could it be misogyny as he's also belittled a woman in menopause as I've seen in Rate Your Doctor.
Also, we've been told to keep clear of the internet by doctors. I actually think the internet is a fabulous tool for communication which helps us to inform ourselves and perhaps to understand the slew of possibilities a symptom might indicate. This forum is perfect for a very upset and angry mother like myself whilst I try to maintain my eastern equilibrium and sort out a plan of action.
Could it be that in reality, no patient who is angry with his or her physician carries an anger as gross as in the graphic? Novakova Eva, Hyacintova 3222/10, 106 00 Praha 10, Czech republic, tel.: +420 241740842, +420 728654076
Anonymous from today 12-25-08, I presume you made a typo and intended "He's said that maybe he wanted a brain tumor, when she called him to find out about her MRI which was clear" to be "she wanted". If so, sarcastic remarks to troubled patients are not therapeutic! ..Maurice.
I think I'll leave a comment after spending the last 2 hours reading what others have wrote on this topic. I initially did a search of "I hate patients" which did not yield much result. I then changed it to "I hate doctors" to try and get different viewpoints and found myself here.
I'm a resident physician in emergency medicine...and pretty burnt out. ER is different in that I don't have established relationship with my patients, and many of the patients I see don't have doctors. I went into ER because I love pathology and taking care of the critically ill...together which is about 10% of the patients. The rest of the patients (after enough exposure), I feel are hypocritical complainers, liers, drug seekers, and ER abusers. The COPD patient who can't breathe...but still smoking. The 500 lb guy with chest pain. The cirrhotic who is still drinking a pint of vodka a day. The "10/10 pain" "can I have more dilaudid" looking comfortable and the 30th visit this year for "pain". The demented nursing home patient who's back AGAIN with gawd-knows-what, who will get a million-dollar workup just because they have a problem list 1 page long and a medication list to match, who I feel it is more HUMANE for us to let them die, but no one will because of...liability.
When I began medical school, I actually wanted to help people. Now, every patient I see is just a liability. My thought process no longer thinks "what can I do to help this patient" but rather "what do I have to do to cover my butt in case something goes wrong and the patient sues". And so I order tests the patient oftentimes don't need, which then ends up being paid for by tax dollars as many people are uninsured. People come with all sorts of complaints expecting an answer, only to be turned away back to their doctors (who they don't have or can't afford) with some drugs to cover up the symptoms...as long as their problem isn't life threatening (which almost never is).
To sum up...what I learned in medical school: Listen, empathize, work with patients. What I learned "the hard way": patients lie to get what they want or to hide what they don't want you to know, why empathize with those that don't help themselves (ie stop smoking, stop drinking, lose weight), patients can hurt you...whether from a lawsuit or preventing eating/sleeping/going home. Patients are the enemy.
I also read a lot of women complaining about male doctors and getting "assaulted" during pelvic exams. I think most of these are a bit ridiculous (although every now and then you do hear about the doctor getting arrested for fondling a patient). This is why I ALWAYS have a nurse when I do my pelvics, for MY protection (oh it often makes the pt feel better too with a nurse there so it's a win win situation) in case they decide to launch that complaint against me.
Anyways, the above is just to provide some different viewpoints. Obviously this is biased and written after another harrowing shift in the ER.
Overall though, reading the entries at least reminded me how scared and confused many patients are.
Chill, maybe a suggestion to you would be for you to migrate into office practice. I suspect many of those patients who appear non-compliant actually would be more health knowledgeable and care for themselves better if they had the opportunity to be followed longterm by a physician. Unfortunately, if they have no money or insurance they don't have this opportunity. Nevertheless, I think you would feel more comfortable in attending to your patients by the population you would find coming to your office.
Obviously the excitement and personal use of special skills would be missing outside of the emergency room. Unfortunately, the "covering one's butt" aspect of practice will still be present.
On the other hand, maybe you were born to be a ER doc and all you need is a few months rest and relaxation on the Riviera. ..Maurice.
Hi Dr. B,
The fact that you are asking the questions already removes you from the "suspicious intent" category and I was glad to find the postings here. I searched because I am a humorist and commentator who wrote a posting blog today called, interestingly enough, "I Hate Doctors - A Rant." I won't fill up your comment section with a copy of my article here, but please drop in for a dose of insight from a frustrated patient experiencing a ten year search for answers.
Visit me at http://laughtilyoudie.blogspot.com/ or, after January 2nd at http://robynnsravings.blogspot.com/
Thanks for offering this to people from a physician's perspective. It is desperately needed.
I've been reading through a lot of the postings on this blog and the original one before it. So many people hate doctors...I hate patients. I didn't always, but after sacrificing my youth, my health (both emotional and physical), my money (unlike what everyone insists on believing, medicine isn't always a great money maker) I couldn't care less anymore. I've wanted to quit for years but couldn't. There are malpractice insurance tails of 10s of thousands of dollars that we have to pay just to protect ourselves from all of you hating patients out there when we want to stop practicing, and I don't have 10s of thousands of dollars although I'm considering just going without and taking my chances. They can sue me all they want, I don't have any money anyway. Then I had a contract with the hospital that required me to stay and practice for 5 years that I signed when I was dumb and naive right out of residency, not wanting to believe how the hospitals and practices would take advantage. I actually would have quit my first day of residency if I wasn't $70,000 in debt and worried about how I would ever pay it. I would definitely quit TODAY if I didn't have all these financial roadblocks. Nevertheless, I'm working on gradually easing out of this bloodsucking profession. They abuse you physically, emotionally and mentally throughout training and then expect you to be nothing but caring towards every patient you see no matter how much they want to attack you. Maybe some can do it, but I can't. I'm not writing this looking for anyone to care because it's apparent that people don't, and I'm taking the same stance for myself. I'm a person too and if the society at large chooses not to care about me at all why should I care about anyone else. Fortunately, this will all be over soon and all you people can take care of yourselves.
This idea that we're supposed to be Mother Theresa is ridiculous. It's a profession meant as a way to make a living. That means we need to get paid and if the society insists on it costing an arm and a leg to get through medical school, ridiculous amounts to pay for malpractice insurance and lot's of lost years of income during training then that means we need to get paid well when we start working.
It may not sound like it to those reading this but I'm a good doctor who's been beat down by the system. Many patients say they love me as their doctor. I get lots of referrals from them. I have a very low rate of surgical complications. I'm smart and I do care about people, but when you sacrifice everything and try to care and all you get is criticism, insult, lawsuits and fighting with both patients and insurance companies for your trouble, then after awhile it's no longer worth it. Fortunately, I've found something I think I'll like better and an in school to change careers and it can't happen soon enough.
I'm not looking for anyone's sympathy. I'm way beyond that. But, I'm not the only doctor who feels this way and if something doesn't change there won't be nearly enough. No matter how much you hate doctors, when you're really sick, you need them and they won't be there. And, society will have no one to blame but itself. Good riddance.
For the doctors who say they hate the people they are taking care of- IT SHOWS. When someone comes to you for help because they are scared, sick, and lack the education and ability to know what is happening to them, they rely on you. They need to trust you with their physical body, and emotions are a part of that. You know damn well not everyone you see is trying to get their hands on some drugs or just a hypochondriac. My doctor broke my trust, and I will never be the same. I was treated like a lump of flesh they needed to hurry up and get through. Their lack of sympathy, discretion, and understanding wasn't even something they tried to hide for the sake of professionalism. Cry me a fucking river. You have an education, you have a job. Maybe you should become a plumber so you can go work in shit. Since this is how you view the humans that come to you for help, it won't be much of a job change, except shit doesn't mind being treated like shit.
There are two sides to every story. ER is surely no grand place to go. While my mother lay in ER on a ventilator clinging to life with nurses joking about her blood pressure dropping, six feet behind was a group of doctors and nurses coming in for the next shift laughing and carrying on. It was so loud it sounded more like a party than a hospital. Doesn't anyone have any sense? The ER nurse was so distracted that while she gave my mother an injection to raise her blood pressure, she knocked the ventilator tube out of the ventilator and didn't even realize it and started to leave the area as the alarm was going off. She didn't even hear the alarm (because of the loud laughter and partying behind us), but came back as we yelled at her. It's very unfortunate for everyone involved that the health care system is set up to be a profit-making business. It is ridiculous that doctors are put under the physical, emotional and financial stress right out of medical school when they are supposed to be caring for people. When doctors are put in a position to care for patients in a profitable way, no one wins. As my 95 year-old grandmother lay dying in the hospital following a stroke, an orderly showed up in her room with a gurney to take her down for an invasive stomach test. Had I not been there to say no, she would have been used as a lab rat after living for 95 years weighing all of about 80 lbs. My mother told me about a story when she was in the hospital in the 60's. A lady next to her was there for bowel problems, and she said that at least 10 interns marched in individually to check it out, each shoving their fingers up the patient's rectum until it was raw and sore, and while they were there, they lifted up her gown and commented that she had hair on her nipples and that was a problem and they would have to further investigate it. While medical malpractice causes the third highest death rate in the United States, it seems outrageous that anyone could complain about lawsuits. It is very difficult to bring a medical malpractice suit, and many people are left maimed or killed by negligence. Until the whole "healthcare profit-making business" is revamped to actually care for human beings, the patients will be mistreated along with the staff. It's sad that there is the technology to really help people, yet it is surrounded by a business that needs to pull a profit regardless of the outcome for either patient or doctor.
I went to my Primary Care Physican today and after seeng this doctor for less than six months, I know now that my assessment of him from day 1 is absolutely correct, I very strongly dislike him.
He is arrogant, aggresive, confrontational, condescending and
lacks compassion and empathy.
I've been sick for a long time and I live in severe pain 24 hours a day and it is very clear that this doctor is uncaring and uncomfortable treating someone like me. Today was my last time seeing this doctor, I came home and called my insurance company and promptly chose another physican. Life is short and I have rights as a patient, if my doctor
treats me like this it's his loss.
Karma is a funny thing and I pray that he'll have the opportuntity to be a patient someday and receive the treatment and disrespect he gave me.
I hate doctors because most of them quite obviously have contempt for and don't give a shit about their patients. These days, when a sick person goes to the doctor for help they are herded through the office like cattle, generally ignored and made to feel small and insignificant, and finally prescribed some over-priced, unneccessary medication that they probably can't afford but that their doctor prescribed for them because he/she was trying to cover his/her ass against a malpractice suit.
And HEAVEN FORBID the patient should dare to question the omnipotent wisdom of the physician! In my experience, such questioning gets nothing more than an annoyed dismissal. Well FUCK THAT. I am an intelligent human being, not some moronic child who doesn't know what's good for him. I'm sick of doctors treating me like something nasty they found under a rock. I'm PAYING YOU to TREAT ME, and that means I CALL THE SHOTS. Not the other way around.
Doctors need to get it threw their arrogant little heads that they are not treating stupid bags of meat, but PEOPLE who have BRAINS and EMOTIONS, just like they do. Until this happens, health care in this country will continue to be the overpriced, ineffectual disaster it is today.
I have not seen a male doctor since I was a child...I have always felt very uncomfortable with male doctors after a terrifying experience with male medical students as a child in hospital. (in the days when your parents couldn't stay with you)...
This was clearly the start of my fear and distrust of male doctors.
I have since worked at the Medical Board and rather than alleviating my feelings, it left me disgusted and angry.
I will never see a male doctor for anything...I have lost trust forever...
I felt so sorry for the women who trusted these "doctors" and placed themselves in the most vulnerable of positions. These men scar women for life...
We covered the dirty old men that insisted on examining young womens breasts at every opportunity - when they presented for a sore ankle or earache - just taking advantage of their position of power - or insisting the young woman be completely naked for an exam...down to sexual assaults and digital rape.
I was constantly frustrated at the failure of the Board to protect women - to allow these "doctors" to continue practising - to continue assaulting...
These "doctors" should not be allowed to hide behind a professional association and the Board - they should be treated in the same manner as any other man facing allegations of sexual assault.
Thankfully, the public has had enough of these men and the Board is now unable to continue sitting on their hands - matters are simply being directed straight to the Police - and rightly so....
I firmly believe that many male doctors are interested in access and opportunity with women's bodies, others like the power and control, some may even dislike or hate women.
I know some male gynecologists seek gratification simply from doing a complete exam which gives them intimate access to a woman's entire body - he doesn't need to step over the line...
Others speak about their patients disrespectfully - judging a woman's body..."only old saggy tits today"...
I do not believe men change simply by going to Medical School - men are visual creatures - body parts stimulate..."he's a leg or boob man"...
I don't believe a man can do a pelvic dispassionately (like a mechanic looking at a car)...
Women also need to question the need for routine invasive exams and tests - you'll be surprised to find many are totally unnecessary in asymptomatic women. Many of these exams are more about power and control and making money...nothing to do with women's health.
Also, read up about cervical and breast screening - risk information is deliberately withheld from women. I rejected cervical screening 30 years ago after doing my own research - for me the risks far outweighed the benefits...
IMO cervical screening has helped a far and harmed thousands of healthy women...
Dr Angela Raffles (cervical cancer screening expert)recently released some mind blowing statistics (much to the horror of the screening lobby) - 1000 women need to be tested for 35 years to save one woman from cervical cancer.
Why?
It's an unreliable test for an uncommon cancer (only 1.58% of women would get cervical cancer in an unscreened Australian population) yet almost 78% of women will have a colposcopy (& possibly biopsies)in their regular screening lifetime with only a tiny number having malignancy - some women will be left with permanent damage to the cervix - others will be traumatized by this unpleasant procedure.
Women are rarely asked whether they want to participate in this screening - it's bullying, scare campaigns and women being "required" to have the Test if they want the Pill - how can you give informed consent in these circumstances?
BTW the only exam required for the Pill is a blood pressure check - women need to be informed to safeguard their health. cancer screening has nothing to do with birth control. (See research by Heather Dixon & many other authors)...
Pelvic and rectal exams in asymptomatic women are unnecessary and can be harmful...yet many doctors still try to convince women an annual exam of this sort is essential to their health.
Do your reading and make up your own mind.
The evidence against mammograms is also a worry - look at Screening Wars by Prof Michael Baum (breast cancer surgeon)- he thinks it's disrespectful to women not to give them risk information...
I agree...
New research shows regular mammograms may increase your chance of getting breast cancer....they suspect the bruising of the tissue.
Also, false positives and follow up including surgery.
We also now know about Ductal Carcinoma In Situ - many older women will have DCIS - it's a slow moving cancer that usually doesn't worry a woman - once biopsied however, it can become invasive - also, once diagnosed, the breast is usually removed as doctors fear liability...
This is the way women are treated and harmed by the medical profession.
In the days of no female doctors - when women had no choice of doctor, the systemic disrespect and abuse is well documented - doctors could operate as Gods with no repercussions. I know one older lady who was physically restrained by two male doctors and forced to submit to a pelvic exam - she still bears the scars 45 years later...she was reduced to tears when I told her I would have sent her file straight to the Police....she was sexually assaulted - being a doctor does not change the meaning of sexual assault and digital rape or any other crime. This lady has avoided doctors all her life, lived in fear...
Or the recently retired doctor who admitted to us over dinner one night that he used to sneak his mates into the maternity ward at night to watch a woman give birth or to watch a breast exam...
He conceded it was wrong, but felt his behaviour was excused by his youth.
I don't agree....
So, yes, I hate some male doctors and will continue to see female doctors for the rest of my life.
Even with female doctors, you still need to do your own reading, ask for risk information and make your own informed decisions.
I don't live in fear - knowledge is power...and gives you control over your body and health.
Try it - I think it will free you up to really enjoy your life!
It's me again,the poster above. I forgot to add what about all the women who were subject to pelvic examinations by med students while under anesthetic without their consent or knowledge?
CG
I agree with Elizabeth. I do not like doctors because they are judgmental and think they are superior. I especially dislike male doctors because many of them don't respect women.
CG
Maurice, can you start a thread on inappropriate comments and actions that doctors have made?
NP
I hate doctors because my father went to ER suffering a massive stroke, only to be told he had an ear infection. Only because my mother insisted that it most definitely was more serious than that it was diagnosed. When I saw him days later he looked like a classic stroke victim to me. When my daughter was suffering from classic signs of appendicitis, I was told by the doctor at the ER that it was a urinary tract infection. Only after they did blood tests they believed me. After surgery they discovered that it had actually ruptured probably because we had to wait 3 hours in the waiting room. Tell me why is it that my mother and I can diagnose more accurately with absolutely no medical experience whatsover than ER doctors? Why are we dismissed as imbeciles?
TT
NP, examples of "inappropriate comments and actions" by healthcare providers has been noted widely on a number of threads here on this blog, including this one, but written in the context of the particular thread topic. I am not sure that just lumping all the examples in one thread without relating them to specific issues would be necessary. This thread "I Hate Doctors", presumably related to why the writer is unhappy with doctors, provides a space for such general examples that you appear to be asking to be posted. If I misinterpreted your request, please explain. ..Maurice.
Perhaps I should visit patient the patient modesty thread or the naked thread. I was specifically meaning inappropriate sexual comments and actions. Here most examples relay incompetence rather than inappropriate comments. I can give you my own example. When I was pregnant with my first child ( I am married too BTW) I said to my PCP that I was a bit nervous about giving birth. To which he replied" you should have thought of that before you opened your legs".
NP
I have actually several threads covering "humor" in medicine but none specifically on what the professional considers "benign humor" as expressed to the patient or others but actually is deprecatory and belittling of the patient as a person and a fellow human being. With regard to "humor" and what is appropriate vs inappropriate, I actually had been thinking of focusing on that issue in a new thread. And if the posting examples for that new thread are limited to "humor" and not actions or other behavior and, of course, no names named, then I think I'll start such a thread.
By the way, as you may have noted I put the word "humor" in so-called scare quotes to emphasize my view that, unfortunately, humor may not really be humorous to the patient or others. Right? ..Maurice.
Right. I really do not want to hear sexual jokes at my expense in a professional setting. Especially if it is from a person of the opposite sex. I already feel I'm in a vulnerable position with a doctor. Not everybody wants to discuss their sex life with other people you know, even with a doctor, unless it is relevant. And if I have to, I want to discuss it in a discreet manner. Making jokes (in that situation) is crass to me. I'm not a prude, far from it but I am a lady. Just because I'm married and pregnant doesn't mean that it's open season on my sex life.
NP
I strongly dislike the medical profession for the following reasons: 1) Physicians are generally arrogant and condescending, it is as if their humanity is stripped from them in medical school to make room for their newly bloated egos, 2) far too much time and expense is spent simply covering their asses rather than doing anything that might actually help, 3) their ability to think critically is limited; medical school apparently teaches physicians to think in a very rigid manner-when faced with a complex situation that does not lend itself to a single, common diagnosis they almost invariably cannot deal with it and try and ship you off to someone else-a show like "House" is a complete joke because no medical team could ever be bothered to actually think a situation through like that in real life, 4) They rarely ask good questions, and are mostly poor listeners-they try and put your problem into a certain box (for which they are equipped to deal with) from the minute they see you and if it is not possible they get frustrated and look to pawn you off on someone else or say it's just "stress", 5) the precision, or lack thereof, that physicians show in their diagnoses makes economists and weathermen seem spot on accurate in comparison, 6) they think in terms of time=money to the nth degree which is quite obvious when dealing with them; you ALWAYS feel like they feel you are wasting their time and finally 7) they always focus on getting you well enough to get out of their hair, rarely on treating the underlying condition(s). Such short term thinking is all about the dollars and cents and not about patient quality of life.
At the suggestion of visitor NP, I have created a new thread titled:
"Medical Humor: A Joke or a Poke?". I hope to have a discussion there about the good and bad side of medical humor. Go there if you want to contribute your own personal experience with a good or a bad joke spoken to you by your healthcare provider and what the joke meant to you. Please, don't give the joker's name whether either good or bad. ..Maurice.
To the comment posted by Elizabeth. I couldn't agree with you more. I firmly believe the that men have no business practicing gynecology. What I think happens more times than not is that at some point in their lives women and young girls are faced with having to see a male gynecologist. I find this to be most disgusting. Having to share your intimate details with a stranger, being completely exposed in a undiginified way(stirrups were created by men), and having this stranger touch every part of their bodies to "screen for cancer" or to get them used to pelvic exams(which is a mostly useless ritual). I don't think women can quite understand how they are being manipulated with fear tactics. Most of them feel embarrassed, humiliated, and violated. Often times innapropriate comments are made. A man can not do a pelvic exam and remain detached like so many women want to believe they are. For a male gynecologist examining young women this simply is not true. Men get into this field for all of the reasons you mentioned. Some of them don't even realize it. I also don't believe any male gynecologist that says "I am dedicated to woman's health". Of all the reasons to become doctors, how does picking a field where you basically touch mostly healthy female only patients innapropriately everyday? I can't believe women allow this to happen to them. It makes me incredibly angry sometimes since my recent girlfriend will only see female gynecologists from now on. Something happened to her and I suspect abuse.
Speaking of gynecologists, I wonder if any of the posters here have seen the "Hysterectomy Use vs. Abuse" thread? Dr. Mo, could you provide the link?
Degrading pelvic exams are bad enough, but the ultimate payday for a gynecologist is to amputate the reproductive sex organs of a woman. That surgery pays about five times more than any other less-invasive organ saving procedure. The statistics from the CDC are that gynecologists have removed the reproductive sex organs of one-third (1/3) of the population of women in the United States. One in every three women is astronomical and 90% were done for benign conditions. Some doctors estimate that between 50-90% are unnecessary, but it continues to be done systematically every year at approximately 650,000. I personally know several women who were lured into surgery with the cancer scare tactic. When no cancer was found, the doctor proceeded to amputate all their healthy organs anyway. Clearly, there was no informed consent and it is mind boggling why this is allowed to go on.
Yes, please don't detail the hysterectomy issue here. Please go to the hysterectomy link and write there. By the way, should women (or their husbands) hate ALL doctors if they are upset with the standard of care that only gynecologists provide? ..Maurice.
I actually love the new crop of young female doctors. They are fantastic! Empathic, respectful, gentle and no ego!!. I am looking forward to the next 20 -30 years when the current crop of older male doctors retire or die off (Sorry Maurice). Why do I not like older male doctors? Because they are chauvinists who do not respect women because they are women. Older male doctors are not intelligent enough to realize that women are in fact smarter than men. (Einstein's first wife for example ) Look at what great progress we have made when given the chance. Also back in the day when this older generation became doctors, it would have been far easier to get into med school and complete it as there was far less competition and not as much to know, 'take two aspirin and call me in the morning". I know, as my FIL went to med school,( but didn't graduate ) and he astounds me how stupid he is!
LK
Jeanne wrote suggesting that I provide here a link to the initial thread of the hysterectomy topic (no additional postings are allowed there) rather than the current thread which comments are accepted so that interested visitors could start at the beginning. There is a link there to the second thread.
OK. So here is the link to the first thread "Use vs Abuse of Hysterectomy..." Thanks for the suggestion.
..Maurice.
I've been reading these blogs for a few weeks now and I think I know why there is so much hate and anger towards doctors. As children we've been taught that doctors are nice people that make us better. When we grow up we realize that not only do they not make us better a lot of the time, but like everybody else in society they do their job for the money. In fact more so than others because the financial rewards are greater. (I know plenty of starving artists who don't give two hoots about money BTW). So it feels like such a betrayal that money comes first, then their reputation, then the patient. I've read med student forums where they ask questions like "how much do OB/gyns earn ?" etc.
It's all about selling. Try to sell that not needed hysterectomy, try to sell those drugs. I think that is why I like cosmetic surgeons at least. There's no illusions there. I ask for something, I pay them, I get it. There's no bowing and scraping to them like they're doing something noble like other doctors expect.
Now we have access to their forums we know what they think of us. They look down on us, they have rude acronyms for us, they hate most of us. So it really feels like we've been stabbed in the back by our best friend when we realize how they really feel.
They've even become more conniving about how to appear as if they care. They supposedly learn "empathy". But when you look into it they only learn how to appear to be empathizing. They're taught the body language of empathy so patients won't sue if there's a mistake. It is so hurtful to realize that you're doctor is only being friendly for that reason. (or while you're paying him. Have you ever seen you're doctor outside the practice? I have. He wasn't going to utter any words for free to me ! A quick hello and he tried to get away as fast as he could before he gave away any other free words). There's actually nothing wrong with being in it for the money but why do doctors try to pretend that they're better than the rest of us and that they do their chosen career to help others when it is clear they do not? Of course there are a few exceptions. Dr Hamlin who does work in Ethiopia comes to mind. But the fact that doctors think they can ride on the coattails of doctors like that sickens me and they should be ashamed of themselves.
AP
MB, you seem like a good guy, great blog. I'd just like to raise a point. Here in the UK we have some major problems in our health service - ok it's free, but there's also a lot of bureaucracy & cronyism, bad decisions made and long waiting lists. Doctors often get the brunt of this, as they have the greatest contact with patients day to day. Debating whether doctors are good or bad, responsible or irresponsible, hated or loved... whilst it makes for a good debate, it's totally pointless. Sure, it allows people to shoot off about their own negative/positive experiences... but you know what? I hate patients (I'm not a doctor BTW, but I do work in healthcare). I hate patients.... most ake no responsibility for their health - they smoke, drink, over-eat, don't exercise, if they do exercise they do it poorly and get injured, they make poor life choices, get stressed, angry, closed minded and arrogant.. then what???? They go to a doctor/nurse/physio and expect SOMEONE ELSE to fix it for them. Don't hate doctors people, hate yourselves for all the times you didn't take responsibility, hate it so much that you change it. Then if you end up on a trolley with CHD, having smoked 50 a day for the last 30 years, at least have the decency to say "I did this to me" and give the doctor (who probably doesn't get paid as much as you think) a damn break. The problem is not with doctors, or patients really... it's the culture we embrace and continue to fortify. Change it. It starts with individuals. Best wishes to you all.
MB it appears you haven't really read this blog and the complaints. Saying ALL health complaints are due to poor lifestyle habits leads me (a health professional) to believe you must not have much experience/education in health or medical care. And my guess is that as a Brit you haven't lost your house due to medical bills or had to choose between seeing a doctor and buying food. Your opinion then isn't really relevant in this discussion.
Sex Organ Amputation i.e.: (Hysterectomy) and (Oophorectomy) i.e.: Castration, are the most terrifying and medically damaging attack on the female anatomy, brain, nervous system, endocrine system and sexuality any woman could ever even imagine. But the gynecological industry continues legally to physically and sexually maim tens of millions of women by medical deceit for profit legally in America. It is legal for gynecologist doctors recommending hysterectomy/castration to not disclose the medical information necessary for patients to make an informed decision. Get the accurate medical information concerning Hysterectomy/Castration at, HERS Foundation. Watch the free "female anatomy" video and the functions of the female organs medical information on the Hers web site and read the blog. Sign the petition to end un-consented un-warranted hysterectomy/castration in America.
Women deserve better than being legally lied to by the gynecological medical industry. One in three women by the age of 60 in the U.S.A, 22 million women alive today, did not become de-sexed by being told the medical truth. The women are being lied to medically and the numbers of de-sexed women prove it.
For clarity, I think that the Anonymous writer from 9:23am today was referring to me as MB and the last comment from another Anonymous was not referring to me since, of course, I have read this blog completely! I again would hope those who want to write Anonymously will provide us with a consistent pseudonym or initials so we know who is writing what. ..Maurice.
To Anonymous who posted blaming the patients for the problems with healthcare. No doubt there are pain-in-the-ass patients, but when the third highest death rate in the U.S. comes from medical mistakes, it is at the very least ludicrous to blame the patients.
I just watched an episode of "the Drs" And they were discussing patients who use the internet for diagnoses. The patronizing attitude was infuriating. One of the doctors said he would get a patient come in saying "I think I need a hysterectomy" and the patient is a teenage boy. He may have been joking but the he is so typical of what we hate about doctors. They seem to think that they are the only educated people. I posted above about my daughter having appendicitis. I made the correct diagnosis from the internet. The ER doctors tried to tell me that it was a UTI.
Funny how only the female dr on the show didn't have the patronizing attitude about patients using the internet. She said it can be a useful tool.
TT
This came from Anonymous this evening but posted on the closed first "I Hate Doctors" thread.
I haven't been seen by a physician ("doctor" ..please.. it's a degree for christ's sake) for 30 years, and I am better off for it. The medical industry pedals fear... along with the drug companies.. ignore them! they are full of $h1T. Recognize, please, that most of the "diseases" that they "treat" never existed until they invented a drug that they could sell you to treat it (at an obscene profit margin). boycott the medical industry!!
I guess I have spent over 50 years in the wrong profession! ..Maurice.
"I hate patients (I'm not a doctor BTW, but I do work in healthcare). I hate patients.... most ake no responsibility for their health - they smoke, drink, over-eat, don't exercise, if they do exercise they do it poorly and get injured, they make poor life choices, get stressed, angry, closed minded and arrogant.. then what???? They go to a doctor/nurse/physio and expect SOMEONE ELSE to fix it for them. Don't hate doctors people, hate yourselves for all the times you didn't take responsibility, hate it so much that you change it. Then if you end up on a trolley with CHD, having smoked 50 a day for the last 30 years, at least have the decency to say "I did this to me" and give the doctor (who probably doesn't get paid as much as you think) a damn break."
I DO eat healthy. I DO NOT smoke or do drugs. I always wear a condom during sex. I exercise regularly. And I STILL have not had my health issue addressed. This just tears it. I am so TIRED of the complete incompetency of our health care system. Doctors, nurses, the whole damn system is WORTHLESS. I have not gotten the treatment I deserve. Ive only gotten my money STOLEN by CROOK doctors. I may as well treat myself.
Annon, I don't think I've read a single post here where a patient has complained about a doctor not fixing their health due to poor lifestyle choices. You may encounter them in your profession, but remember as a health worker you deal with the public. That means you deal with people with low IQs and mental problems, people who don't have the capabilities of helping themselves. We are venting here because doctors seem to consider themselves as top of the food chain yet behave in some very dubious ways sometime.
LH
Oh and another thing Anon. I've seen advertisements from the '50s of Drs promoting smoking as a healthy habit.
LH
Like most, I found this blog in a fit of frustration typing "I HATE DOCTORS" into google. I'm only 18, so my experience with non-pediatric doctors (incidentally, every pediatrician I have ever seen was fantastic) is not particularly extensive, but I have currently had a staph infection eating away at my leg for the past 5 months, treated apparently incorrectly with two different antibiotics, and no doctor I see seems to take it very seriously until my leg has once again become so painful I can't walk or is actively gushing blood and pus. Every time this recurring infection has come back, it starts off small, I go to the doctor in hopes that they can begin treatment before it gets "bad", they tell me it's not urgent or serious or staph, 2 days later I cannot walk and there's blood everywhere and they act surprised that !!! IT WAS STAPH AGAIN, and seem to completely forget the past few times this has happened, all in the past few months.
But assuming they see a gazillion people a week, and assuming everyone is human here, I'm not too mad at the doctors themselves, because I haven't had years and years of anger building up. What's currently causing me to irately google doctor hate is the fact that getting an appointment with an infectious disease specialist is like getting an appointment with the effing president. SERIOUSLY?! I'm an 18 year old girl. I lost my job in food prep (yeah, I worked in a grocery store deli.) because of staph, and I've had to stop boxing and running for the past few months because of my leg. My life, like my previously healthy leg, is deteriorating because of this infection, and no doctor seems to want to take it seriously until I am bleeding in their hands.
One thing I can say is that nurses are the best! I have never encountered a nurse who was anything less than kind, helpful, and unendingly patient with me - this is ER nurses, pediatric nurses, and the nurses who work in any of the clinics, hospitals, and doctor's offices I've been shipped around to for this staph infection. I love nurses!
Today I put up an Addendum at the bottom of the first page of this thread which is an Essay about the "sagging of medical professionalism" which I think is very appropriate for this thread. If you haven't already read it, you might want to go back and do so and then post your thoughts about it here. ..Maurice.
I cant believe that I found this blog. I had a situation in a hospital 4 years ago and it is still
bothering me. I even reported it to the chief medical officer of the hospital. But I still have no closure...
I see that I am not the only one with negative feelings about doctors.
anonymous LW
To: I'm an 18 year old girl. I lost my job in food prep,
Please watch the "Female Anatomy" video at, Hers Foundation. It is life-saving. You are too young to not be informed of the grave injustice being perpetrated on females being castrated at the rate of 2 women a minute, every day in America in 2009 A.D.
P.S. Are you sure you don't have Mursa?
Mattie, in her P.S., is writing about MRSA which is Methicillin Resistent Staph Aureus. However, regarding the text of her posting, I would advise that we shouldn't migrate the hysterectomy issue over to this more general "I hate doctors" topic. The details of the hysterectomy issue should be read and posted on the thread "The Use and Abuse of Hysterectomy:Section 2" ..Maurice.
Dr. Mo,
Thank you for elaborating on MRSA. I read your posted essay about the "sagging of medical professionalism". I think this essay is very appropriate for the hysterectomy/sex organ removal and oophorectomy/castration discussion too. Thanks.
Mattie, I think I will put that essay on the first page of the hysterectomy thread as an Addendum. ..Maurice.
Plain and simple most doctors these days are more in it for the money than for the people. It's pretty easy to see through.
They care more about the pharmaceuticals that will pay them essentially for advertising and prescribing their products, even if it's not an accurate treatment (in this retrospect pharmacists are such better people in that they transfer you to a generic brand to save you money)
I've seen lot of doctors in my times but I don't hate doctors because they don't care or because they are grumpy or being assholes. I dislike most of them because they lie through their incompetency.
Doctors who clearly have no idea as to what is going on should state so and ask the patient to go see another doctor. Not try to fit the symptoms to a disease in the doctor's area of knowledge!
I really wish there were more doctors who would tell it to you straight and stop beating around the bush.
For once I would like to hear a doctor say something like "Hi, I'm Dr. x so and so drug companies gave me money so I might be biased towards them even if you don't necessarily need their drugs and even though it many cost you more. Also it's been 20 or so years since I got my degree and I really have not been keeping up with the medical society, so don't expect me to know about that new drug or how ulcers are now known to be caused by a bacteria."
Honestly I think all doctors should take a retest every 5 or 10 years after getting their medical degree so to keep them on their feet and studying.
YOU CANNOT just BS through it as a doctor, people's lives are at risk! Doctors have to realize that the profession they chose isn't richly rewarded because they hauled ass for 10 yrs in school but because they gotta continue to haul ass till they retire!
David I agree with you. I would prefer a young recent doctor graduate than one with years of experience as I think their knowledge may be outdated.
GG
I have just in the past few months grown to dislike a few doctors. I have been dealing with the same issue for over a year and half.
One doctor, I can't fault for his lack of testing/treatment because I had no health insurance. We all know "no pay, no play".
But now the couple of doctors are telling me my symptoms are all in my head. With no testing or serious inspection, how would they know?!
After being reminded in so many words that I don't know what I'm talking about in regards to my body and he does because he's the DOCTOR, I am this far from losing it!
My mistake seems to be visiting vets. I am sure I need a new doctor fresh out school who still has some fire under his ass and a real desire to help and not just have people pay to look at his/her degrees on the wall.
To Anonymous(uretha problems) on IHD Part One, I have been where you are,suicidal. It's a very defeating feeling to have the people are supposed to offer hope do nothing but crush it. Try to stay up.
The Anonymous to which the above visitor is referring to had erroneously posted on the now closed first Chapter of "I Hate Doctors". I am reproducing that comment below. ..Maurice.
At Sunday, March 08, 2009 5:40:00 AM, Anonymous said...
Live a day with the intense urethral stinging that I have suffered non-stop for six-months, while being ignored by doctors who tell me that it's just in my head, and maybe you'll see why some of us hate doctors so #^&^%#&^ much. I am only 23 and I feel that the rest of my life has been ruined, I've been suicidal even, and no doctor will even listen. They refuse to even inspect my urethra for any sort of damage! They only give me useless antibiotics even though even if it WAS an infection it would have cured months ago.
to anonymous above problem with new doctors are that they don't have experience in doing what they want to be doing
hence everyone should try their best to go to the hospital during spring winter fall but not summer because summer means interns and doctors in training and there's a distinctive rise in mortality rates during summer (i remember reading this off webMD?)
I mean it makes sense... soo it's like either way u lose heh...
Cheer up people. Your message is getting through to us. Yes, I am an emergency medicine physician and the attitudes of you and patients like you resonates deeply with myself and with my partners and colleagues. I try my best under difficult circumstances every day but find myself very depressed at times with the level of hatred and anger expressed. If you meet me out of the ER you would never know that I'm a physician because I've learned to hide that fact. Every young physician (except one) that I work with is actively seeking a non medical job (research, administration or teaching). None plan on seeing patients five years from now. Remember that these are docs in their mid thirties and they want out. The money in ER isn't that great and the hours stink. I am looking for an honorable and respected profession that I can move into.
I am embarrassed to be a doctor.
David I posted above re experience. All I know is my c section was done by a young grad and I had a fantastic recovery. My friend had hers done by a very experienced older OB and she complained about being in pain for a whole year. But of course it was all in her head (that was his attitude) as he's probably done a thousand c sections . It's not a scientific observation but I feel the older doctors probably do get arrogant and think they know everything.
Anyway the last poster is probably a great doctor. We really shouldn't make generalizations.
CG.
well yes... but I was just stating what I've read from webMD (it was giving out lot of advices on choosing hospitals and such)...
so not really my generalization... it's was a statistical study done by another group
"If we could give every individual the right amount of nourishment and exercise, not too little and not too much, we would have found the safest way to health."
Hippocrates (460-370BC)
I've said this before on this blog and will say it again on behalf of the ER doctor who posted above. I feel for you I really do but until your whole entire profession does a revamp and figures out that you have to treat the whole person it's only going to get worse for you and for patients.
Seven years ago I was so ill that unless I got away from doctors and their drugs I would FOR SURE be dead right now. I was in my 30s when I got sick and now I'm in my late 50s.....It took me years to heal not only from my illness but particularly from doctors, but I'm finally well and I plan on writing a book and being on Oprah some day talking about Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and how people are getting sick and staying sick because of doctors (I'm not being grandiose I've already published 2 books).
Granted so many of them don't believe that CFS is a real illness even though people who have it are sicker than someone on cancer chemo or someone in end stage AIDS. I was convinced by doctors that I was "depressed" and medicated into a psychotic state where I was also in a continual state of withdrawal as they bounced me around on toxic medications for over 10 years. Now I know that the normal dose for medications is toxic for someone with CFS. So not only was I on toxic doses, I was in constant withdrawal, and I was very, very ill with CFS, something that I tried to explain literally for years that fell on 100% deaf ears.
I went through withdrawals by myself (because I didn't want to die) which took a total of 1 1/2 extremely painful (physically) years. And I started my own healing program. I've really had to rein in the hatred and the anger for losing most of my adult life but now I'm in a position to help others, a place where many doctors will never be. This is because I feel deep empathy for those who are suffering and many doctors only seem annoyed at your suffering. There isn't any kind of pain that I haven't experience on a deep level, and none of it was "validated" by doctors, it was all blown off...even though I was bedridden for years and at some points in time month after month, too weak to turn over in bed. When I became cachetic I was anorexic according to the doctors. F that!
Now when I have a doctor say to me "I've never heard of that," I tell them, "Let me educate you." So again to the ER doctor above, why not stay in your profession... why not break away from the pack and begin an integrative practice where you actually help people get well?
I totally understand and agree with what "nasa" has said here about doctors. The only actual help I've ever received from a doctor was when I needed an antibiotic for an infection, or a limb set after breaking it. If I didn't feel good, they would order a bunch of tests and when they came back normal, they would allude that it was all in my head. I've found that when people complain about anything that doesn't show up on a ct scan or blood work, doctors start prescribing them psyche drugs which can be very addictive and cause the person to become very ill, which leads to the doctor even prescribing more of these type drugs. Not only is the underlying problem never addressed, but now the patient is faced with many more problems because of the poison drugs. The most help I have ever found is when I went to a holistic doctor. Not only did the doctor listen to everything I said, she had me fill out a long questionnaire that was full of detailed questioning about how I was feeling. She understood how the human body works and would provide nutritional supplements and holistic medicines for each problem. At every appointment she would ask how I was feeling and address each issue. She never rushed me, and never acted like she wasn't interested in listening. The holistic medicine and nutritional supplements helped me a great deal. Almost immediately I could feel and see a difference and none of what she gave me had any adverse side effects. Human beings could be compared with a plant. If the plant is not doing well, you fertilize it (feed it) so it has the proper chemicals to grow healthy. Pharmaceutical drugs are mostly poison, and do not make anyone healthy. They often alleviate one symptom and create many others. The whole medical pharmaceutical system needs to be revamped so that it addresses and is rewarded for making the patient healthy, not sick.
I think that the time available for a physician to interview and examine a patient is the primary culprit that prevents doctors who would otherwise be the kind of doctors that patients would want as their doctor, instead they appear to the patients to be uncaring technicians. The limitation of time is forced upon doctors by demands of clinics and HMOs who set goals to meet their own criteria of an office visit and not truly that of the patient or physician. Time is necessary to take a proper history and a good physical examination. Time is necessary to discuss with the patient the tentative diagnoses and plans for further workup and therapy. Without time, everything is rushed and instead of limiting testing to the essential tests, a host of what turns out to be unnecessary tests are performed in hopes to identifying a disease which couldn't be identified because of the limited time for history and examination. Time.. it is not the only explanation for the bad grades doctors get from the patients..but it is an important factor. ..Maurice.
When I was younger, I looked up to doctors as kind, skilled, educated Humanitarians. I have had the good fortune of knowing two that actually were. I've worked with doctors for 25 years. Today they simply bring to mind the scene from The Wizard Of Oz...."Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain".
To the embarrassed doctor:
yes I will be graduating (in 9 days to be exact) from a good school, going to a good residency at a top program after working countless hours with a lifelong goal to get to this point. I did so with what I believe was a naive ideal that I could/would help those in need. Only now at this late hour do I realize how hollow this all is and the depth of hatred the public has for us, how little they want my/our help. I do not want to do this anymore. I do not fear the debt -I just wish I could have my 20s back.
MD2B
MD2B. don't give up. Read Moof's realistic description of doctors. I think you will feel better about your new profession. ..Maurice.
MD2B..Many people get frustrated with a doctor...and some even hate them....BUT not everyone hates them....I can't tell you how to be a doctor...but if you treat patients like they are live human beings..with feelings you should have a LOT less trouble.. You know...kinda like you are human and have feelings too.
Don't think the world is going to award you with an automatic sainthood...because you chose to become a doctor ...no matter how altruistic your reasons...be true to yourself and your oath...and the effort and time you have invested...will have been worth it...because you will find that most people who will respect you when you do.
leemac
MD2B
Maybe the lesson you should get from these blogs is not the anger, but the causes for the anger...You are reading the other side of all those case histories you studied in school...
I had two great doctors when I was young..both were army doctors from WWI...both were more understanding and kind than you could imagine and both were respected by my family..and both had other folks who loved them and respected them...and both had folks who came close to hating them if they did not hate them outright...You are going to have to realise you are probably going to get both in your medical life....BUT you can not let it discourage you, but rather encourage you to do your best and to accept that humans are humans...
You say you want to help people..OK I think that to be noble..but you will never help those that you might have been able to or know the satisfaction you will get from knowing you did help them..if you quit,
You want your twenties back..we all do..even if we are not doctors...you cant turn the clock back , but you can choose to make those years an investment or a waste...and that only you can do,
leemac
You shouldn't put the words "holistic" and "doctor" next to each other. A doctor is educated. A holistic "person" is a quack.
I have never had a good experience with a doctor. I am 51, and I have an endless list of horror stories. Doctors are criminal psychopaths. The entire system is corrupt. It is nightmarish. Medicine should be nonprofit. Everyone should have free health care as an absolute right. This country has just given 14 trillion to bankers, but the government says there will be no social security of medicare for boomers. We need to stop the entire system as it now exists and rebuild everything over again. This country is a nightmare. We are definitely undergoing population reduction. When the shadow government began spraying us with chemtrails in 2005, everyone I knew, including myself, was in the hospital. Now, everyone I know is dying of cancer, mostly pancreatic. Not one doctor acknowledges chemtrails or the numbers of people who are being sickened by them. Every single health care worker in this country is guilty of complicity with a genocidal government. They think they will be spared, but they breathe the same air.
MaraMaraKaru, tell me, what are "chemtrails" and how are they being sprayed on us by the government? I have never heard about this at all. ..Maurice.
Maurice,
I believe there are far more good doctor's than bad. Unfortunately sick people often keep going to different doctors until one of them says they can cure them. This is usually the evil witch doctor that wants to make a quick buck dicing up the poor sick person that no one else could heal.
I was a strong and healthy teenager when a doctor recommended that I get a routine surgery that would improve my breathing. The doctor damaged me so badly that I have a permanent breathing disorder from his mistakes. I went to countless doctors who swore that my problems were caused by other physical issues. I now know that this is not the case. I keep living in pain but I shall never trust a doctor ever again. Hate is not too strong a word for me as many doctor's passed on telling me the truth in order to save a colleague from a deserved malpractice lawsuit. My condition cannot be healed and I realize that skepticism and doubt is appropriate when diagnosed by a doctor even when they believe that they know everything. It is not their body and they often make decisions based on their financial benefit rather than the patients well-being. I wish every day that I can breathe normally again. This dream may never come true and it is because of a doctor.
I hate doctors too... I am one and hate myself for ever going down this path. I spent 10 of the best years of my life training to be a physician (after college). I studied hard to be top of my class, worked 120 hours a week for 5 years during residency, and now have hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt from school loans. Now I've been in practice for nearly 10 years and I wish somebody would have been straight with me about the PRACTICE of medicine. Truths... If I don't see at least 6 patients an hour, I lose money. Overhead is ridiculous. Malpractice premiums are $80,0000 a year (and that's lower than a few years ago, thanks to tort reform - and I've never been sued). In my practice, overhead is about $70,000 a month per physician. So what, physicians make lots of money - yeah, so they can pay staff to file appeals on each claim sent to an insurance company (ever try to get through to an insurance company? no different for a physician's office). You want 15 minutes per visit? you pay my overhead. You think the $29 dollars per medicare visit pays all the staff you see in the office? No pressure to see patients quickly. If I did care about patients I wouldn't have time to show it... (that's a joke - ha, ha)
Time constraints aside, at least 15% of my patients are drug seekers. always nice at the end of the visit for the "can I get some dilaudid?" question. Most patients don't listen to my recommendations and come back 4-6 weeks later with the same symptoms. "Therapy? I use my shoulder all the time at work. I don't need therapy." Oh good, then why are you here? You can obviously diagnose and treat yourself.
If you can't read between the lines, I am completely disgruntled with medicine. I understand why patients hate doctors. Unfortunately with todays system, there isn't enough time to SHOW that I care. Don't think I don't care. Do you think I like seeing the same patient over and over, without them improving? I'm sick of medicine. I'm sick of patients thinking that they are my only patient. Please call me in the middle of the night for the same problem you had the last 3 days. I can only hope the rest of my 8,000 patients call me tonight too. I don't like sleeping. I don't like seeing my kids at night. I love filling out insurance, fmla, disability, etc. forms. I love dictating for 3 hours after seeing patients for 10 hours. I love my patients lying to me, trying to get pain medications. I love patients talking on their cell phone, ignoring me when I come in the room. I love patients not paying their co-pays. I love patients threatening to sue if I don't see them that day.
I love my patients. I love being a doctor.
Lovebeingadoctor
Hello Maurice and Fellow 'Posters',
I have just graduated as a Master of Nursing/Nurse Practitioner and will be writing my state board exam in 11 days. My wife is an MD-a radiologist. She is a lovely, sweet, kind person and my best friend. However, I have been a nurse for 25 years, and have to say that I simply hate physicians who embody the archetype of same. I suspect this has to do with having had a patient's chart thrown (and hitting) my head in my first year of nursing because an orderly was late in transferring a patient to the OR. Or maybe it was when I called the responsible internist to report that one of his patients clearly had a pulmonary embolism and needed transfer to the ICU immediately (this was in my 3rd year), and he told me that I was stupid and incompetent. I circumvented his authority and she was transferred to ICU for a week's stay and returned to my floor still on a heparin drip (no worries, she survived). Or, it could have been the snap of the surgeon's fingers as he yelled 'come on girls, get with it' as we ran to scribble down his orders. In more recent years, perhaps it was the arrogance of an inexperienced and masogynist MD who I had to work with in Africa who caused my early return home. Funny enough, the MDs on our African team had telephones, internet, and a vehicle - we 'women' (RNs) had none of these and had to ask them to drive us to buy clean drinking water, never mind food, or to contact our elderly parents at home via phone.
I'm in a very awkward position - I am overcome with disgust when I think of the medical profession as a whole, yet my wife is a physician. And further, I continue to ask myself why, oh why, I have put myself through such hell as to become a Nurse Practitioner? One reason that I can think of is that this is my way of slamming that patient's chart hard, right back into the noggin of the physician who physically assaulted me - along with the long line of equally arrogant physicians with whom I had to work. Maybe it is that I need to prove my worth to my sweet and loving wife. But most of all, I think it is because I know that I am an intelligent, knowledgeable, expert RN who makes large differences in patient's lives.
Regardless of the reason, I know that I need to do some serious work in tempering my attitude. But I also must say: MOVE OVER, you MDS - we NPs have arrived!!!
HIVRN
I copied HIVRN's comment to the tread "Patient Modesty: Volume 19" since I thought it would be pertinent to the discussion going on there regarding patient modesty and gender selection and gender responses of healthcare providers. ..Maurice.
This explains a lot:
WHAT IS NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder)?
The Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) has been recognized as a seperate mental health disorder in the third edition of the Diagnostic and Statistics Manual (DSM) in 1980. Its diagnostic criteria and their interpretation have undergone a major revision in the DSM III-R (1987) and were substantially revamped in the DSM IV in 1994. The European ICD-10 basically contains identical language.
An all-pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behaviour), need for admiration or adulation and lack of empathy, usually beginning by early adulthood and present in various contexts. Five (or more) of the following criteria must be met:
1. Feels grandiose and self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion
3. Firmaly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions)
4. Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation -or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply).
5. Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations
6. Is "interpersonally exploitative", i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends
7. Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with or acknowledge the feelings and needs of others
8. Constantly envious of others or believes that they feel the same about him or her
9. Arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted.
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php/type/doc/id/419
Although I teach med students, I have not been on the admitting committee, however one would think that this personality disorder could be easily caught in advance when the student applies for medical school and is interviewed. On the other hand, I wonder how many admission interviewers are sensitized to pick up a mild case of this disorder which under later life-situations can become more flagrent. ..Maurice.
It really isn't that I hate doctors, it's more of a frustration. Not only with the doctor, but the facilities that must be used. My husband has worked in fiberglass (literally, which not everyone does) and has been very ill. The majority of doctors say there can't be anything wrong bc he is too young and EVERYONE works in fiberglass. After numerous doctors we find one to help. He is 100 times cheaper that the the facility needed for a 45 minute procedure. Make sense. Doctors are stressed, however they chose the profession. We all know that med school is expensive and that you are poor while there. That does not entitle you to dictate care for a patient based on insured or not insured. On if you think they are really sick or not. Now my husband got bit by a brown recluse and was told by not one but two doctors that they just didn't feel like dealing with the problem, that yes they could do this or that but oh well. Yes, this was actually said to our face. Now his eye is swollen and painful. Maybe before doctors choose this profession decide if you are willing to make average pay like the majority of humanity and do your job, or do everything you can to make the big money you assume to make and neglect those patients that need you for their care. If they didn't need you they wouldn't go see you. For those that say patients are addicts or hypocondriacts...send them to the psych department of pain management or any of the many other branches out there. You act as if you work alone, there are many branches of medicine. Maybe some day people can take responciblity for their choices and quit taking all frustrations out on those that have nothing to do with the place they are in now. It only takes a few bad seeds to ruin the bunch.
I hate that doctors these days seem to over treat and over perscribe for everything. My healthy, beautiful two year old has seasonal allergies and eczema and last week had an asthma attack, which albuterol relieved only for an hour or so. The doctor sent us to the hospital for IV STEROIDS, even though after receiving a shot and breathing treatment in her office, he was no longer wheezing. In fact, he was not in distress again during the six hours it took us to receive treatment in the hospital. They had a very difficult time getting an iv in him, it took 4 tries and he was totally hysterical. He was d/'c from the hospital on oral steroids and inhaled steroids, an antihistamine/decongestant that made him completely crazy, as well as albuterol. Now I see that oral steroids impair the immune system. And all this during flu season. Thanks a f***ing lot, doc. Seems to me that that was all just to CYA. I am really mad about this. Our doctors treat the symptom, not the disease. The drug companies are running things and for profit medicine keeps everyone sick. They have made illness a commodity, so we might as well give everyone the MAXIMIM treatment possible. I saw one entry here that referenced a doctor seeing pharm reps while patients were waiting. I see this in my doctor's office too. Pharm reps come in daily. Pushers, that's all our doctors have become. I am taking my kid to a Naturopath.
The following was posted this morning on a thread whose subject was inappropriate for the content of the commentary. I decided this thread would be the most appropriate.
..Maurice.
At Wednesday, September 30, 2009 11:01:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...
An article written by the Johns Hopkins Medical School found doctors to be the 3rd leading cause of death.
http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/doctors-leading-cause-of-death.html
For many of us this is very much the truth as we suffer pain and loss from the unnecessary loss of our loved ones or pain associated with unnecessary surgery that has left us disabled. Often doctors play God recommending surgery and drugs that are potentially destructive and life threatening. Sadly many of them do not care since they do not suffer the lifelong pain that we do. Would they recommend the same treatments on themselves or their own loved ones. Often I don't believe that they would. A percentage of doctors are motivated by money that surgeries bring.
=CD
I have one doctor that I am crying over bewcause I feel like I hate him and I have to kiss his butt because he is the only doctor in 100 mile radius that can prescribe suboxone to me!I am a recovering addict.I was not a dirty mouthed tough street person that he seems to think addicts are.He swears at me,saying F*** many times,calls me one of those Bi-polor people,calls me honey,tells me to work harder to get him his money because there are 100 more people dying to get into his office and give him there money for the drug!Today,I called him to ask when my appt was.I lost my appt slip and he through a fit.said F***ing blah blah blah and said later instead of goodbye.i have been seeing him for 20 months and he asked me my last name today!Are doctors permitted to swear at or to their patients?Or to call them honey?Or to ask them to go to the store and get them soda and they will take $10 off of their bill?He says I have a nervous breakdown every 3 months and has told me I hve to take a certain antidepressant or he will not see me again."Doctor's Orders"As far as I know he thinks I am still on it.He was nice in the beginning and is now a money hungry jerk.He knew from the beginning that I am poor.He does not care how I get the money>If I do not get it all he will cut me off.He is a drug dealer!!
No-one can hate doctors more than me. They have utter contempt for us stoopid lay people and cannot stand any idiot patient actually bothering to learn about their condition. Whoever it was that said ask questions and go back until you get an answer is dreaming, how dare anyone question a doctor and NEVER take in anything from the internet because their 10 minute training in that particular illness tell them all they ned to know. Your hours of research is worth nothing because they have magic clever doctor brains and we are just too dumb even when we are highly respected professionals in our own field and can manage to absorb basic info about a disease that they just DO NOT KNOW. When did a doctor ever say I dont know!!!!!! They would rather laugh sneeringly at you as though you were the idiot. The people who go into medecine do it so that they can enjoy the power of telling other people what's what. It is fun to have someone quacking in front of you worrying about their health and be able to sit back and pontificate, do this and dont do that - even when you are talking rubbish. eg doctor my son has had low grade fevers every evening for 6 weeks since he got that bug - "WELL STOP TAKING HIS TEMPERATURE THEN..." BRILLIANT WHAT GENIUS! Cleva cleva doctors.
NP wrote the following commentary today. ..Maurice.
I was at the cemetery yesterday visiting an old friend's grave.... And then I saw it. A tombstone with the name "DR ____ ____" OK he didn't write his own headstone, but here was the crux of the reason why Drs are so despised. They do not see themselves as ordinary people. Even in death they think they are superior. If only they realized that those days are long gone. People are educated now, we are not in awe of the doctor.
NP
I was talking to my son's cousin who told me he was trying to get into medical school. I asked him what he wanted to specialize in. He said,"I don't know, just something where I make the most money."
I don't know him well so I let it drop. But as a former ICU RN I want to say to anyone whose considering going to med school....go into Walmart when it's filled with shoppers, look at everyone carefully and know that you are going to have to care about them, touch them in places you may not care to, listen to them, and this is on top of the fact that it will take many years of hard work, sleep deprivation, and lots of money until you get to a place where you can turf off the touching of unpleasant people and body parts to someone else. By that time you may have changed your mind that this is the ideal way to make money. You may end up on the receiving end of many of these posts here. There's a lot of ways to make really good money where lives are not at stake.
zzron wrote the following today:
For all those who hate doctors so much I offer a simple solution to your problem. Next time you are sick, just don't go to the doctor.
..Maurice.
People hate "doctors" because of many reasons, all well documented by the owner of this blog.
Doctors are only interested in money.
Examples abound. I no longer call doctors, "doctor". I suspect this will prevent me from getting access to prescriptions and one day cost me my life when I get sick enough.
If there are doctors in heaven, I want to go to hell.
Fascinating, I didn't know how much patients hated me until reading this.
I have had put my life and my childrens life at risk for the good of others.
Doctors are not in it for the money, initially.... That happens later, when we realize even the sweetest patient and their family will try to sue or defame us if diagnosed with a serious disease or told they have something terminal.
We recognize, we are human. The public does not.
Also there are many crazy people in this world, some of these hate comments reflect that.
zzron,
I wish I could, when I'm ill, just order my own scripts and tests and not go to the doctor. I really do. The last time I went to one I was covered in spots. I was told it was hand foot and mouth disease. I said if it is that then why doesn't anybody else in my family have it especially my 3 month old and 18 month old. The doctor replied that the baby would still have your antibodies in his body for immunity. So if the baby is immune because of my antibodies then why aren't I also immune? So of course I then go home and google. I see that it could be caused by a strep A infection as I did spend a night at the hospital the week before.
I get a second opinion, mention that I think it could be a strep infection but get told that it probably is an allergy. At least this doctor humored me and ordered a strep test and yes of course it was strep A.
AZ
I hate doctors. I'm basically healthy, but we do have a history of mild mental health issues in the family. I've moved a lot at each doctor gives me a different diagnosis and different treatment plan. Even when I've told them that I'm happy with the plan the other doctor was providing. I think they just make it up as they go along.
Also, I'm tired of being talked down to or treated as though I'm foolish because of something as insignificant as insomnia. One doctor even suggested that since I have insomnia my husband and "are not ready to have children". What an egomanical jerk.
Don't like doctors , don't go to one.
Sad truth is most people don't want the truth.
Internet is a good tool but just that a tool. Above person states that she is mad that she found out that a side effect of steroids is immunosuppression.....true, in large doses over a long period of time but a short burst will not do that and WILL help the inflammation of an acute asthma attack. Her DR could've explained that if she'd gone back with her concerns rather than interpreting medicine on one internet read.
An Anonymous visitor wrote the following today to the now closed initial "I Hate Doctors" thread. ..Maurice.
Genital exam is a standard part of the pediatric WELL visit exam as it can be a clue to endocrine disorders.
These posts just scream to me how badly we need more mental health care in the country.
"These posts scream to me how badly we need more mental health care in the country."???
How F!@#$ing dare you call ME "sick". You a@!holes caused the trauma I experienced as a child. When are you pediatricians/doctors going to F!@#$ing get it as to why so many people hate doctors!!! You don't treat your patients (mostly children and women) with respect concerning this subject (and other subjects)...privacy of the genital area and the right to not being violated against our will in one form or another by YOU!!! And because you are being called out on something (in this case something more specific)...again you disrespect and discredit me (a "consumer", is what a lot of you doctors/hospitals call us now from what I have seen on many web sites), by calling me F!@#ing "mental". All I can say is F#@!K you all. You don't get it that a lot of children ARE traumatized by you basically forcing yourselves on them. My niece is now another victim of your abuse when she confided in me that she hates doctors and why (unfortunately it is the same reason). I am just speaking out against your medical abuse. All it is, is a power trip and/or sick need on your part because obviously you could give a shit whether or not you traumatize kids...which is again "sick" on your part...otherwise you would give them a chance to say "NO" if they are not comfortable with you spreading their legs open. I should have had rights as a child to my dignity and privacy, especially when I wasn't sick or having any symptoms and for pediatricians/doctors to view kids as basically subhuman, not having rights concerning this subject IS "sick". It's my F!@#$ing body and to say that forcing a child into having her underwear removed and legs spread wide open when she is horrified/humiliated/violated by the idea, especially when there are no symptoms is F!@#$ing "sick" on the part of the pediatric/medical community...and if you as an individual doctor believe otherwise, you are the F!@#$ing "sick" bastard.
Children have the right to say F!@#$ing "NO".
AL
I think AL is overreacting a bit. Genital exams are a routine part of a general physical exam, not an excuse for perverted male doctors to fondle young womens' genitals. I imagine that most doctors aren't much more happy about having to do this kind of exam than you (the patient) are, but it is an unfortunate necessity in order to perform a complete exam. Of course, I don't know the details of your situation. Perhaps your doctor acted inappropriately. But I think that the majority of doctors are not power hungry perverts.
Having said that, AL's basic point is valid: Doctors often treat their patients like cattle, performing procedures and exams with little or no regard for the patient's emotional comfort. If I'm not mistaken, I believe med schools actually encourage future doctors to maintain an "objective" attitude toward patients so that they don't become emotionally involved with a patient's situation. I guess that's neccessary to some extent, but doctors need to realize that this "objective" air they try so hard to maintain often comes across as non-caring coldness to the patient. This coldness does not contribute to the health and well being of the patient, nor does it contribute to ultimately reaching a positive outcome for the patient's problem. Doctors need to realize that their patients are people, not just numbers on a patient list. Being considerate of the patient's emotional well being is just as important as diagnosing and treating their physical problem.
M.
Having taught first and second year medical students how to take a history and perform a physical examination for the past 25 years, I can tell you that we don't teach the student to be "objective" when they interact with a patient. To be "objective" means to look at the patient as an "object" and that is not what medicine is about. Students are taught that students and doctors have emotions and there are times when true empathy is felt toward the patient's condition and needs to be expressed but not to the degree where the student or doctor's emotions dominate the relationship since then the relationship is no longer therapeutic for the patient. This caution in the relationship might sound like being "objective" but it isn't. It means that though the doctor should not simply think of him/herself or behave as a technician, there are also limits to the expression of emotions toward the patient. And the limits are set by the question: "By my actions am I doing the very best in attention and care to the concerns of my patient?" And that means, clinical attention to the details of the illness, diagnosis and treatment but also attention to the other needs and requests of the patient and to always look at the patient as a "subject" and not an "object". Unfortunately, despite our teachings, some physicians persist as technicians. ..Maurice.
I appreciate M's acknowledgment that doctors do not have regard for their patients discomfort with these exams, however, doctors have no F@#$!ing "routine" business in children's genitals and it is absolutely F@#$!ing not an "unfortunate necessity". It is only what you sick doctors want!!!When the child does not have any symptoms in that area and when the child does not want it you still force it upon them with no regards to the child!!!!!! So I absolutely know that most of the pediatricians are either pedafiles or like to force their power over their patients!!! Otherwise if they really cared about children, they would take the child's emotional well-being into consideration by giving the child a say whether or not they are OK with being violated between their legs. I ALSO DO NOT F@#$!ing CARE ABOUT THE DOCTOR"S POINT OF VIEW OF HOW "HAPPY" OR "NOT" SOME OF THEM MAY OR MAY NOT BE ABOUT DOING THESE "EXAMS"...THEIR POINT OF VIEW MEANS ABSOLUTE F@#$!ING SHIT because it's my F@#$!ing body not their F!@#$ing body!!! I have also read MANY adult women's experiences of intimidation from their doctors to get them into stirrups so YES many/most doctors DO have power trip issues.
The fact that pediatric patients have no rights concerning the privacy of their own genitals...to not being violated and some/many of us traumatized is F@#$!ing incomprehensable!!!
So my F@#$!ing pediatrician got what he wanted when I was 9 so I hope he got a good thrill out of it... I only got a lifetime (from the age of 9 to today) of nightmares, sleepless nights, tears, and absolute F@#$!ing hatred toward doctors!!! The fact that I was forced by not being even told what the doctor wanted to do..he just did it with the attitude that "this will happen" so I was not given any consideration that it was my body and had the power to say NO, which I would have said NO. He just removed my underwear leaving me completely naked on the table and spread my legs wide open... To have someone do that to me at 9-years old was horrifying, humiliating, and as far as I was (and am) concerned I was completely violated... so no I am not F@#$!ing overreacting. You just don't F@#$!ing get it...everyone is not the same...some people do not want anyone violating their genitals and the doctor's could give a shit as seen for example by "anonomyous's" comments. That was my first and last genital exam as I never let another doctor near me again, and take me seriously when I say that I will F@#$!ing die before I ever let another doctor near that part of my body ever again!!! and will "take out" the next doctor/nurse who ever does violate me for any reason. I already have found out from blood tests that I now have Stage 3 kidney disease probably from UTI's which of course I don't go to doctor's for since it ivolves that part of my body. You F!@#$ing doctors give no regard for children's emotional health and took the right to say "NO" away from me when I was 9. So because of that, it has since always been "NO"!! It did in NO WAY "get me used to" those exams...it did just the extreme opposite!! Boy what a life-saving exam that was! AL
Genital exams are a standard part of well being visits for children. A parent or guardian is typically present especially with a young child. Some doctors have a nurse in the room. If your child is uncomfortable with that speak up on their behalf.
It should be explained to the child what is being done and why in terms they can inderstand by the doctor. The child should be draped. The underwear will come down but they can have a sheet over their gentials so as not to be totally exposed. The doctor can ask the patient to drop their knees and take a look. It should take all of about a minute. If there is an issue further examination and tests could be required.
Here's part of the problem:
we teach our kids that if it "feels wrong" then it is. Then without much explanation, we take them to appointments that may involve many people seeing them undressed/uncovered. Then we tell them it is "o.k. if it is a doctor or nurse". That leaves the child to try to mentally rationalise the difference between one adult and another.
Confusing. Parents need to take a larger role in protecting their child and how this child may or may not see this difference. As we see, the results can be damaging. Some people will simply never be able to differentiate between one adult touching them and another.
And I have to wonder...how can we just expect them to? Conflict about our bodies happens young, and you can not simply tell someone it shouldn't matter here but it matters there.
It matters everywhere. We need to mitigate those possible damages somehow. By the time someone grows up and needs care, the dye may already be cast.
Just because you F@#$!ing doctors made it "standard" doesn't mean it is right!! You made made it "standard"...so F@#$!ing make it "NOT STANDARD" anymore! Not that anything will ever F@!#$ing change because the medical community doesn't give a F!@#$ing shit... these are humiliating and violating exams and should not be part of a "routine" exam!!! It sure as hell isn't "routine" for the F@#$%!ing child and you have no way of tracking the harm it does to children after they leave your exam rooms, you just go on your merry way!!! The child has civil rights which include not being humiliated, violated, and traumatized by any adult, including F@#$!ing pediatricians/doctors... the right to say "NO" which of couse you F@#$!ING doctors still obviously don't believe or F@#$!ing care!!!The child should be told that they have that right if they are not comfortable with having their underwear removed and legs spread wide open. The thought of doctors doing this to children makes me physically feel ill and I absolutely F@#$!ING hate pediatricians/doctors!!!!!
Draping doesn't do shit!! I still would have said NO (if I hadn't been forced like all children now are) to the exam if draping was offered because it still would have been totally humiliating and F@#$%!ing violating! These exams have absolutely no F@#$!ing place in a "routine" exam/physical when the child has no F@#$!ing symptoms in that part of their body!! The whole idea is absolutely F@#$%!ing sick!!!
AL
hmm... just curious why would kids need to get their prostate checked unless they had showed symptoms of a possible infection. same goes for the genitalia. I thought only high teens and low 20s were at the highest risk for testicular cancer? As for the prostate examination it's been shown that examination turns up more false positives than could be considered beneficial and even then is only recommended above age of around 50.
So why would a kid ever get his prostate checked by the doctors?
In babies and very young children they wouldn't be looking for prostate or testicular cancer. They would be checking for signs of infection, abuse and mainly proper development. It is typically done at yearly physical with a quick peak. It should take a few seconds. If the patient or parent makes a complaint or the doctor finds an issue further examination or testing would be ordered.
I'm F@#$!ing sorry but your body tells you when something is wrong. If a kid has an infection or some other problem in their genitals then he/she will not feel well down there and complain in one way or another. If the child is acting normal with no complaints with their genitals then nothing is F@#$!ing wrong! So don't F@#$%!ing insult my intelligence by telling me that I don't know when I am sick or having a physical problem with my genitals!! AGAIN I was not sick in any way or having ANY symptoms. In fact I was extremely active and even very much so excelling in sports but was humiliated, violated, and traumatized anyway against my will like all other kids now are... No civil rights to say NO to having my own genitals violated and being subjected to humiliation!! And for me it has pretty much ruined most aspects of my F@#@$!ing life!! You F@#$!ing pediatricians/doctors just brush us off thinking that "they'll get over it" and when we don't, we are "overreacting" so basically you continue the abuse by telling us that our feeling of being humiliated and violated is not revelant! I went from being a relatively happy kid before I was abused by you A$$holes when I was 9, to a child who was so distraught, I stood at my mother's bedroom door with a steak knife thinking about stabbing her to death not only for what happened but for her lack of concern to me being upset at being humiliated and violated. But instead I ended up bullying and beating up other kids and was smart enough to do it without getting into trouble but according to you doctors I was too much of an unintelligent subhuman to know when my genitals are bothering me.
In addition, I have also read on a couple of other web sites people saying they never had a genital exam growing up and I remember one guy saying he didn't have one until he was 19 years old. So there are a pediatricians out there that don't hide behind the pathetic saying that it is "standard" or "routine". However, unfortunately the majority of you pediatricians (F@#$!ing pedafiles) do hide behind it though so I hope you all are getting a good cheap thrill!! Your need to get "routine" access to children's genitals is disgusting!
AL
Hi Dr. B
It's Kat from I hate Doctors Part 1( the lithotripsy story)- just wanted to give you my thanks for keeping this discussion going. I wonder if you have any idea what a rarity you really are? The fact that there is a doctor willing to discuss this at all is a point deserving of acknowledgement. Just thought I'd pop in- and say again- thanks.
All I say is that I never had children because I don´t want to subject her (especially if it's a girl) to your stupid "routine exams" And it's getting worse, with yet more requirements, so I'm sure I mad the right choice.
Jolly well done!!!
Thanks Dr. Bernstein for this blog!
ANON:....
Are you saying that is the ONLY reason you didn't have children?
I am 54 years of age. I have been sick since 1999. I was not taken seriously by doctors. Recently an MRI scan showed multiple gallstones, kidney stones, large renal mass and bone infarction. I have been to two major hospitals who just gave me the run around. One told me to get the gall bladder operated on same time but said he didn't do that. The gall bladder doctor said to get the kidney cyst operated on but he didn't do that. I went to a larger hospital who said get the gall bladder operated on. All this time I was getting sicker and sicker. Finally, I ended back at the local hospital where I am to have surgery this coming week. The larger hospital told me I could die. What choice do I have? They would not help me.
I am very angry, cry all the time,
now I hate the doctors who would not help me. Some have been very kind and done all they could. It is the ones that could have helped me and didn't that I am angry with.
All they wanted was money. Well, they got paid for doing nothing. I am still in the same condition. How can they sleep at night? They took an oath of office to help the sick. They have now caused a new illness, stress and mental anguish.
I will never trust a large hospital again. They told me I had to come back numerous times. This hospital is over five hours away.
I told them I would come back if they would help me the next time I come back. They said no, I would have to come back many times. I told them it costs 3,500.00 transport each time I come down. I have to come non emergency ambulance. We have no other transportation available. No bus, no trains, no one to take me. They said they could not help that. How long does it take to schedule a patient to drain a huge kidney cyst?
Could that not be done on the next visit? Another doctor previously scheduled me for a Friday evening at 2:40, was not going to use any ansthesia, not even concious sedation, sending me home in 20 minutes, knowing no one would be within 4 hours of me to help in emergency situation after the procedure. He was out of the office with no staff, no pager, no
secretary would not get back to my physician. That surgery was canceled. I reported him, he called me, said he would do the surgery now. I said why did you not call my doctor. He said he was in surgery to which I replied for
a week? That must have been some surgery. I have complained and complained about not getting any help with my illness. These doctors did not even listen to me.
The one said I was not that sick.
He said this huge cyst was not causing all my pain. I am getting sweats all the time now. I do not have the time to wait to continue going back and forth and him not doing the procedure. It has already been 5 months I have been trying to get help. These larger hospitals have a protocol and they expect the patient to fit into their plan. In my case, it cannot work the way they plan. The illness here has control. I emailed the Dr. Phil and Oprah show,if I live long enough I hope to go there and tell my story.
The one that said I was not sick, changed his mind after his boss looked at my reports, but he still wouldn't help me. DK
Those speaking out against gynecology and childhood genital checks, right on!
I'm encouraged that those who have been abused and violated by the medical system while at our most powerless are no longer accepting the brainwashing that abuse and violation are acceptable when doctors do it, and we're crazy not to like it, and speaking out. People from Europe and Australia (check out unnecessary pap smears) think US dr.s are sick perverts for their bizarre obsession with women and children's genitals.
What on Earth are they checking for that is so important they need to traumatize children for life?! It drives me insane when someone suspects children might have been molested, so doctors proceed to actually molest them w/exams that are admittedly 80% inaccurate! [And those who repress their feelings and say it was ok b/c the abusers were doctors are doubly damaged.]
CERTAINLY in a free country "abnormal" genitals are not a problem to anyone but their owners. And even then, intersex people are now speaking out about not wanting doctors messing any more with their privates or bodily privacy. The American medical establishment for too long has acted like they own women and children sexually: Coercive pap smears/pelvic exams w/out informed consent (now gynos are even going after children!)infant circumcision, school physicals, etc. This can't continue in a free society. The doctors are doctors brainwashing is wearing off.
Brave New World
So, then I trust you will not complain to your Dr and sue him/her for malpractice when you develop terminal cervical cancer that could have been prevented if you had allowed him/her to "molest" you?
Good. That's settled then.
"So, then I trust you will not complain to your Dr and sue him/her for malpractice when you develop terminal
cervical cancer that could have been prevented if you had allowed him/her to "molest" you?"
Do you mean the wopping 1% chance or less women have to develop cervical cancer? You are absolutely F$#@!ing correct, I would not sue for malpractice etc because it's my F#$@!ing body and my F%$#!ing right to NOT be molested and violated by doctors... no matter what psycological bullshit, scare tactics, lies, and bullying you try in order to get between my legs!!!
Just like I wouldn't sue for not getting screened for all the other cancers that are far more common but the medical community does not encourage screenings at all,
nevermind yearly screenings...starting when the patients are basically children where that cancer is unheard of. Yup... now you are going after young girls...get them brainwashed and scared while they are young... to "spread their legs for the nice doctor".
36,000 will be diagnosed with oral cancer in the US this year
42,470 will be diagnosed with pancreatic cancer
22,000 will be diagnosed with liver cancer
17,000 will be diagnosed with brain cancer
57,000 will be diagnosed with kidney cancer (RCC)
219,000 will be diagnosed with Lung cancer
11,000 will be diagnosed with cervical cancer
What about the fact that the violating pap smear is an unreliable test resulting in many false positive and false negative results.
What about the CSA blood test that not only is a much more sensitive and accurate test, it is a simple blood test...not requiring women
to be molested/violated by doctors... But then doctors wouldn't have their power to VIOLATE women's bodies...and our sick medical community
don't want to lose that power.
On the Medical News Today website Dr.Martin Keohler says this regarding the CSA blood test, whos remarks have been shared and aggreed to by many:
"Because modern medicine depends so heavily upon the dollars they recieve annually from women who have been brainwashed
into believing that an annual pelvic exam is required to save them from cervical cancer, it will be difficult
to gain wide acceptance to this test; doctors will fear losing the income stream they derive from the testing and treatment of HPV.'
For me the risk is 0% since I have never and will never have a relationship with anyone because of being MOLESTED/VIOLATED by a pediatrician (and basically from my mother as well) from being forced to having my underwear removed and
legs spread wide open from one of your so called "routine" genital exams at 9 years old. It only takes one trauma of being
molested/violated by you a$$holes to ruin a life!
If I had a choice, I would rather have F$#@!ing died back when I was nine than to live the life you have sentenced me to from being molested/violated by you F$#@!ing pediatrician/doctor a$$holes. I wasn't even sick!!!
But who in the medical community F$#@!ing cares how your sick "routine" genital exams effects kids or how they affect women and girls, right, certainly not pediatricians, certainly not doctors, certainly not nurses, and certainly not mothers!! I F#@!ing hate all pediatricians, doctors, and nurses!! You and my F$#@!ing mother can go to F$#@!ing hell!
And it is not "settled then" until you and the rest of the medical community stop (or someone stops you) this sick practice of molesting women and children against their will.
AL
Anon, Aug 4. What a stupid comment. You must be a doctor to bring up litigation. A woman can make her own decision whether to have a pap smear or not. I thought it was a free country. Why would she sue if the doctor ordered a pap smear and she declined? What would the grounds be if she did have cervical cancer? That the doctor should have held her down and forced her to have a pap smear? What if she got a brain tumor? Should she sue because the doctor didn't order a brain scan every year?
Les
Anon Aug 9 and 13, it's clear that you have some pretty serious issues. If you actually believe that every doctor who ever did a pelvic exam on a women actually did so just so they could fondle some female genitals, then you are seriously deluded. Perhaps you should seek mental health counseling.
Obviously you don't understand English. Reread my post Anon, Aug13 9:00. Where did I mention anything about a doctor wanting to do it for sexual gratification? I said women are free to choose whether they want one or not.
BTW I don't think that EVERY doctor wants to do it for sexual gratification. But here's a post by a doctor from this blog.http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/unnecessary-pap-smears/comments-page-8/#comments
I will copy his post here for you to make up your own mind.
"I am a doctor myself, in a smallish town in the midwest. I'm in a specialty where we do not do pelvic exams, but of course I was trained in how to do them while in medical school. It has always bothered me, for a couple of reasons, but the male/female thing has been the main thing originally. I always got a small, secret thrill out of doing a pelvic exam (or a breast exam, for that matter) on an attractive woman. Because we were told that "it's not sexual," "it's just a medical procedure, nothing sexual about it, no reason to have sexual thoughts," I though I was weird. I didn't worry that much because I knew I wasn't going into an area where I would do exams, but...
Then, during residency, I worked with a lot of doctors in the community, and discovered that, for most of them, it WAS at least partly sexual: they would sit around in the lounges and such and sometimes discuss the anatomy of beautiful women who'd been in, and on two occasions discussed, in front me and everyone else, the sexual anatomy attributes of women who worked in the hospital, nurses and such that were mutual acquaintances. I was horrified! I have to say, too, that many doctors, when I asked (because it bothered me), talked about it like, "Oh, it's just another test to have to do, kind of boring, really."
Still, the inescapable fact is that a guy likes to look at a naked woman. Period. Doctors are no different. They like to look at naked women, too. So, if they get PAID to look--I mean, really LOOK--at a woman's sexual organs, and even better, they get to touch them, well... So much the better! I'm not saying that doctors do exams just to get a sexual thrill, because the circumstances really don't allow a full-out sexual experience, but given a choice between doing a lung exam on an 80-year-old guy or a pelvic exam on an attractive 30-year-old woman, I'd say most docs would MUCH rather do the latter. They're only human. They would flatly deny having any such thoughts (in most cases), but deep down, they ARE men, after all.
So, I think sometimes part of what prompts docs to urge women to have more testing is, that secretly they kind of like doing it. The money doesn't hurt (i.e., they get paid to do it). In terms of pap smears being unnecessary for post-hysterectomy women, they also probably often just don't know--there are several things in my specialty which GPs do wrong, all the time, even though they should know better. The ACOG recommends that even without doing pap smears, women have pelvic exams regularly, to screen for various cancers that are of very little risk. I'm sure part of that is just the "hyperscreening" that we've gotten sucked into, part of it is the money, and part is the male domination of women (gives you a great chance to stand there, fully clothed, with a woman who is naked and in a vulnerable position), and the chance to look at and touch naked women.
Here's part 2:
My wife (my second wife) and I got married last year, just past age 50 (for both of us). She had a hysterectomy (for benign disease) nearly 20 years ago. Before we married, she got kind of funny one day, then when I asked about what was wrong she admitted that she had had to make an appointment to "get my pap smear," which she felt guilty for missing for the previous few years. I informed her she didn't need one any more, and she told me I was wrong, that her gyn had told her she DID need them YEARLY, even though she'd had a hysterectomy. I showed her the research and persuaded her not to go back, ever, to that gyn.
Later, in looking at her records myself, I find that she had a small cyst removed from her back a few years ago. The surgeon did a complete pelvic exam as part of the physical before surgery. A VERY complete pelvic exam. There was no need for that (he did NOT record anything other than lungs, heart, breasts, and pelvic exam on his H&P report). A couple of years later she had a small cyst removed from her shoulder. THAT surgeon (a different one) did a complete breast exam as part of her H&P. My wife works in the hospital, with all these doctors (she's in administration). She had her first colonoscopy last year, and the GI doc did a complete pelvic exam as part of her exam. Again, no medical reason to do that. She is not unattractive (not a magazine-model stunner, but attractive--I think she's the most attractive woman in the world, but realistically she's average attractiveness).
In my office, I am now doing a small study. I've asked women who come in (either as patients or as family members of patients) who are aged 30-60, who have had hysterectomies, whether they have continued to have pap smears/pelvic exams and whether their doc has recommended they still have them. I rank them as "attractive," "not unattractive," or "unattractive," being aware this is a judgement call and not really PC (but the ones I've judged "unattractive," I think everyone would agree, are really not attractive at all). So far, I've had 14 women agree to answer my questions, and the results have stunned me: of the 4 unattractive ones, all were told they no longer need to have pap smears/pelvic exams, because of their hysterectomies (even though for one, the hyst'y was for cancer, meaning she DOES need to continue exams). Of the 4 "not unattractive," 3 have continued to have paps/pelvics irregularly (not yearly but every few years, at least), and 2 told me their doc told them they needed them, in one case "yearly" (and her doc was the same one who told 2 of the unattractive ones not to bother with exams any more, including the 1 who had had cancer)--the other 2 never asked and were never told anything by their doc. Of the "attractive" ones (all of whom had hyst'y for benign disease), only 2 have continued paps/pelvics, but all told me their doctors have continually told them they need to come in for regular exams, including pap smears and pelvic exams (interestingly, all but 1 had the same doctor who'd told 2 unattractive ladies not to come back). My wife's (previous) gyn had told one of the unattractive ladies not to have further paps/pelvics, and 1 of the attractive ones she really, really needs them regularly (and she has, until our discussion).
Make your own judgement there, but that's one more reason to be skeptical of attempts to get women to have regular exams. If I were a woman, I would not go to a male doc for such an exam, ever."
Deluded huh? Straight from the horses mouth.
Les
" Anonymous said...
Anon Aug 9 and 13, it's clear that you have some pretty serious issues. If you actually believe that every doctor who ever did a pelvic exam on a women actually did so just so they could fondle some female genitals, then you are seriously deluded. Perhaps you should seek mental health counseling.
Friday, August 13, 2010 9:01:00 PM"
Anon:
I believe the poster has made it clear that they do, in fact, have issues. Those issues are from experiences with the medical profession, and whether intentional or not, have left scars. It seems harsh to dismiss their feelings because they do not match your own. One might also say that to those who consider all medical intrusions sacro-sact should seek boundary counseling as well.
We should be very careful judging those that have walked a different path of experience. We should be seeking resolutions, not spiteful opportunities.
No one WANTS to live with hatred. No one WANTS to live feeling violated. If it made sense then it could be dismissed.
Can we not start there?
Anon August 13, here's another post from the same blog by a doctor's ex wife and why I don't think we are deluded but you are.
"I was married to a male doctor for 12 years, believe me, they DO notice, sometimes enjoy and will change the way they do a consult and what is included if they find the patient really attractive.
My ex-husband was careful not to do anything that couldn't be justified medically or by usual procedure. Given doctors in the States include routine intimate exams when not clinically necessary, it gives them a lot of leeway.
My ex-husband never felt he was taking advantage, it was a perk of the job. I strongly disapproved and he stopped mentioning it to me but when his colleagues had a few drinks at our home, the lascivious talk would start. Even one colleague who strongly denied he even noticed, he was a professional after all, admitted you can't turn off the male genes and he had his "favorites".
It disgusted me.
My ex-husband warned me away from male doctors when we met and told me to forget annual physicals, they were not clinically necessary or even helpful.
I still use a self-test kit my ex-husband sourced for me every 5 years. His colleagues don't mention self test kits to their patients because they want to do the exam. Although one obese older patient got the offer of a self-test kit.
It goes on...unspoken and denied, but use your common sense. Do you really think a heterosexual man is not going to notice and enjoy having a young and/or attractive woman naked with legs spread apart in front of him and being able to touch and probe? My ex was surprised that many young women were happy to expose themselves like that now that female doctors are available.
Anyone who thinks they don't notice after a period of time is kidding themselves. Unattractive women and older women are safer, my husband would go through the motions or express his disgust to me if they were overweight or unattractive in some other way.
Some young women don't care and even feel more comfortable exposing themselves to a man. A young woman (family friend)told my ex-husband that her doctor had an erection after giving her a pelvic exam. My ex-husband covered for the doctor, but told me later that sometimes that happens, just as it happens elsewhere in life when you're stimulated visually or physically.
Don't kid yourselves...a medical degree does not change all the normal urges and reactions."
http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/unnecessary-pap-smears/comments-page-9/#comments
Les
Look anon I could go on. The examples out there on the www are limitless, but I'll just throw in another example for you to judge.
"It makes sense to me. Men are men and unless you have your testicles removed, a medical degree doesn't change a thing.
I agree it's the young and attractive that are most at risk. The older women just get judged or ridiculed.
I've never understood how women convince themselves that men stop being men in the consult room.
I had an early wake-up call and have gone out of my way to only see female doctors for many years. I have never had an issue with female doctors.
As a young woman I had problems with a male doctor wanting to examine my breasts at every visit for anything. I always refused and he'd ridicule me for being immature and risking breast cancer. I always felt like I was figthing him off my breasts and private parts.
I became suspicious when I checked with my mother who also saw the same Dr. Well, he had never raised breast exams with her. Breast cancer is very uncommon in young women and the risk increases with age, yet on asking around our small town I found he was only concerned about breast cancer in women under about 35 who were also attractive. I firmly beleive he was using his status as a Dr to take advantage. My female doctor has never done a breast exam and told me they are of doubtful value if you're not having a breast problem. I rang the Medical Association who said routine clinical breast exams could be discussed with your Dr but they are not recommended.
He also wanted to do pap smears but I was a virgin and always firmly refused. My mother was fobbed off to his nurse for smears. It seemed from chatting to other local women, he did the smears on young and attractive women and fobbed off the others. He put a lot of pressure on young women to have smears and breast checks and fobbed off the older and unattractive women.
I don't have smears, I'm still not sexual, and thanks to all you good people I'll be doing my research before having any, if ever.
The routine pelvic exam and rectal exams are not done here. He probably thought it too risky to pressure young women into those exams, it would be hard to justify if he got a complaint. He would delight in the awful gyn exams that young women have yearly in the States and Canada. Getting a young woman naked and in stirrups! I'm surprised he hasn't moved there and specialized in young women's health.
I wouldn't put anything past him though, if he thought he could get away with it, he'd do it.
I think many women know male doctors get off on these exams and accept that and others kid themselves that these doctors are somehow desensitized to normal male/human feelings and many of us know these doctors are men, first and foremost.
Even though I don't have invasive exams, I'm pleased I have a great female GP and don't have to worry about this issue. As a young woman seeing a male GP it was constantly on my mind during a consult. Even listening to my heart is another example, he would lift the bottom of my bra and wrestle around with it, causing as much exposure as possible and brush against my breasts. (I always refused to remove my bra when he was listening to my heart). My mother: he'd listen through her back or at the top of her bra and this is what my female doctor does for a heart check.
Over the years I've had many friends switch to female doctors and all feel pleased to have left this issue way behind."
http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/unnecessary-pap-smears/comments-page-8/#comments
Les
Les,at least we do teach patient modesty issues to our second year medical students who are learning to examine the chest and heart. For example, to check for the apex impulse (a small tapping sensation to the fingers of the students in the left chest often under the woman's breast and indicates the size of the heart) or to percuss the left border of cardiac dullness..again, under the left breast, we have the student request that the woman lift her left breast up and out of the way herself. Or if she can't participate in this way, the student should elevate the breast using the top of his or her hand rather than elevating the breast by cupping the breast with the palm.
When the students later in the year learn to do pelvic exams, they are taught by teachers who are the student's patient subjects who teach them the right words to use and the right actions to make the examination clinical and not something sexual.
What I am getting at is at least in year 2 of medical school we are trying to set a proper baseline for professional behavior and concern for the modesty of the patient. ..Maurice.
I know Dr Bernstein and I know there are ethical doctors out there like yourself and I am impressed that you published these comments by me. Unfortunately you only need one doctor to act inappropriately that will then turn some patients to dislike and mistrust the whole profession. Probably because one is in such a vulnerable position.
Les
AL started the posting today with
"it's clear that you have some pretty serious issues. If you actually believe that every doctor who ever did a pelvic exam on a women actually did so just so they could fondle some female genitals, then you are seriously deluded. Perhaps you should seek mental health counseling."
This sounds like the typical attitude of a "doctor". Sounds like your trying to protect "something". Nobody thought priests would do such things either and they were protected by the church until it finally came out.
but then continues with potentially ad hominem remarks and unnecessary what I would call explicit "bad language". There are ways to express a variant opinion which is both civil and fair and still demonstrates concerns. It is that way which will cause the reader of an opposing opinion a better chance to begin to accept that variant. Please, even though there is reason for presenting a personally heated issue, in civil, productive discussions, the flame is tamed to provide "light" not "conflagration" ..Maurice.
With all due respect, Dr Bernstein, I am curious why you would call AL on her use of obscenity and "potentially" ad hominem attacks but not Anon Aug 13 9pm for his gratuitous and degrading ad hominem attack on AL, to which she was responding.
It seems to be me AL has been subjected to some pretty abusive and degrading treatment from doctors already, and this is the source of her anger. Having experienced the same myself, but for totally unrelated reasons (chronic pain) I can definitely relate to where she is coming from and the anger she feels. You would have to have experienced this kind of abuse and humiliation yourself to truly understand the emotions it invokes.
I strongly believe there is an attitude of denial and outright cover-up by doctors and health care administrators of severe and often systemic abuses and that this attitude is the rule, rather than the exception. In any forum where I have tried to debate these issues with doctors, I have invariably met with personal attacks, denial and rationalizations of these abuses. It is rare indeed to find a doctor who acknowledges the system's multiple failings, even from the safety of an anonymous post on a blog.
I am trying to express my view as moderator that at some point in these Chapter 2 commentaries there is a need to put a stop to what I feel is a continuing wrong and destructive way to attempt to make a point. With comments like "How F!@#$ing dare you call ME "sick". You a@!holes caused the trauma I experienced as a child." and then more explicit wording any suggestion that I really should have deleted and given my opinion earlier, I think is valid.
I think that the anger of some writing here is well accepted as such, certainly by me. I agree with swf when she writes:
"We should be seeking resolutions, not spiteful opportunities."
Can't we "all get along" in terms of civil and constructive discussion and find that resolution
swf writes about? ..Maurice.
Here's a radical suggestion: if you are so convinced that all male doctors want to do is feel you up, then why don't you go to a female doctor? Problem solved right there and maybe you wouldn't need to spend so much time ranting about what awful perverts male doctors are.
Just a suggestion.
I don't "hate" doctors, but I have developed a mistrust of them since my traumatic colonoscopy two years ago. I had a conversation with my doctor about wanting to be awake for the procedure, and he told me I would be able to "watch the screen," but never explained the sedation drug midazolam would cause amnesia. (I hadn't had any surgeries in over 20 years, and had never heard of amnesia drugs.) I mistakenly thought a sedative would just relax me, like maybe benadryl. I completely freaked out when I "woke up", two hours later, in mid-sentence, arguing with a nurse. (The procedure had only taken 12 minutes.)I had no idea what had happened or what had been said. I became obsessed about the "lost time," and had insomnia, feelings of rage, anxiety, and deep depression for months afterward. When confronted, the doctor merely said, "You WERE awake, you just don't remember !" and chuckled. I cannot move past this horrible betrayal of my trust. If he felt sedation was in my best interest, it should have been explained...and if he didn't mean to harm me, he should have apologized after the fact. (Never happened) Doctors do not realize the absolute trust we patients put in them, and when that trust is betrayed, it is every bit as harmful as if they cause us physical harm. I will never think of doctors the same way again. I know now how naive I was to think they do what's best for us; they do what's best for them.
Rose
So it's fine that a "doctor" blogger can call "patient" bloggers delusional and crazy though...that's perfectly acceptable. Gotta protect your own I guess. The fact that I post "bad words" into my postings is to express, vent and get it through you doctors thick heads, how horribly you pediatricians/doctors ruin lives with your sick "routine" genital exams but you still don't care and keep right on abusing children and women. My "bad words" do not even begin to express the violation, humiliation, and rage that I have had to live with since I had that exam!!!! You didn't like what I wrote so you didn't post it...you have no problem protecting your adult bloggers from the REALITY of how damaging your sick and abusive "routine" genital exams are on children but you have no F@#$!ing care to protect children from this damaging REALITY!!!...and unfortunately what I wrote and how I wrote it is the F#@$!ing reality of the damage those "life-saving routine" genital exams being forced on children does...as well as the abuse that continues after the fact but is obviously accepted by you and the rest of the medical community. But who F#@$!ing cares, it's not violating, humiliating, and traumatizing to the doctor and that's all that counts right?
Bottom line...I don't F@#$!ing care what kind of "Modesty" training your medical students supposedly has because judging from personal experience and the countless experiences of other girls and women, your "Modesty" class is a farce...an attempt maybe to make the American doctor "look good" when in reality American doctors bully, lie, harass, and use scare tactics to get between children's (and women's) legs!
You F@#$!ing doctors also need to LISTEN and get it though your F@#$!ing skulls that children (and women) don't F@#$!ing care if your a male doctor or female doctor or what your personal motivation is by forcing genital exams/pelvic exams. If I as a child do not want doctors F@#$!ing around with my genitals and they do it anyway, it is the absolute ultimate violation (abuse/rape) of the worst kind to the child, and that violation has VERY REAL consequences!!!
American Pediatricians/doctors do NOT respect their patients...not F@#$!ing EVER!!!! Pediatricians need to ASK PERMISSION (not demand it) from the child (or woman) if it is OK to remove their underwear and spread their legs and to then specifically state to the child that if they are not comfortable having their underwear removed and legs spread open, THEY CAN SAY NO!!!!...that is what is called RESPECT!!! A child's genitals belongs to the child, not a F@#$!ing pediatrician and it is the child that lives with the consequences, not the F@#$!ing pediatrician!!!!
Another reality that is FACT and NOT delusional is that our sick American gynocologists are now going after kids (they want young girls starting at 13)! Gotta get them "into the system" and brainwashed while they are still vulnerable...
See blogs about Starting at comment #1117 at:
http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/unnecessary-pap-smears/comments-page-23/#comments
My childhood genital exam not only ruined my F#$@!ing life but they ruin the lives of countless other people to one extent or another...not that youF#$@!ing care right?...as long as you F@#$!ing pediatricians/doctors get your sick needs fed whatever those needs are.
Other people (not just me) have expressed the trauma these childhood genital exams had AND STILL HAVE on them and we haven't even scratched the surface.
See some of their comments here, starting at comment #1128
http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/unnecessary-pap-smears/comments-page-24/#comments
But then again I guess all the bloggers at the pap smear site are delusional and crazy right?
AL
I reject the painting of every physician with the same brush just as it would be unfair for a physician to declare that all patients are ignorant and non-compliant. (Actually those who are "ignorant" are ignorant of the facts because their doctor failed to adequately inform them. The non-compliance may be because the doctor failed to understand the psycho-social aspects of the patient and ordered expensive medications on a impossible to follow dosing schedule.)
Let's all be fair. Yes, point out defects in the system but be fair.
AL, unfortunately you are not around to attend the teaching of physical examination to second year medical students. We do our best to emphasize the need to attend to modesty and the gynecologic teacher-subjects also emphasize professional and behavior which will not be interpreted by the patient as sexual. We, as teachers of these 2nd year med students have no control over what happens in later years. But YOU DO! Each time you see "professional behavior" that appears to be sexual or abusive, notify the local state medical board, repeatedly if necessary and have others you know do the same if they have the same experience. You will, begun by your reporting get rid of those doctors.
Whining on this thread will not do what such repeated reporting to the state will accomplish. ..Maurice.
I think it is important to point out that we have two separate issues going on here. While one does not preclude the other, (and often preceeds), they are still different.
1) Modesty. This is how the person feels about their OWN body.
2) Entitlement. This is how the person believes the CAREGIVER feels about that person's body.
Modesty can often (but not always) be mitigated. Perhaps a same gender caregiver can make the experience tolerable. Perhaps it's perceived respect, draping, closing doors, communicating expectations, etc. These all generally have solutions.
Entitlement issues are tougher, because now it is a matter of someone elses intent, motive, and assumption of rights. These more often can not be mitigated.
If a person truely believes that a caregiver will automatically assume rights to their body only because they have been trained in the skills, then the issues they face are radically different. The person may feel that someone has taken the rights to their own body away, thereby forceing themselves upon that person. Here is where the emotional affects are anywhere from embarrasment to trauma: molestation to rape. Why? Because they feel someone had taken away their choices and left them feeling helpless and violated. Anger, fear, and resentment usually ensue.
I believe teaching modesty skills is great. But warning about entitlement fears should somehow be included because it causes the most fear and damage, and also leaves a percentage of the population not seeking healthcare.
It may sound simple to a caregiver, afterall: you know you need permission to touch someone. But to a person with entitlement concerns, they don't think that you think you do.
"Whining" about the fact that doctors like yourself apparently, ruined my life and the lives of many other people!!!??? Then I don't want to hear another complaint from any doctor about patients HATING DOCTORS!!!!!
That "whining" comment is just another perfect example of how doctors (and pediatricians) just don't care about patients!! They just want us to shut up so they can continue to violate!
Aside from the fact that doctors are protected by the AMA and the courts from being found guilty, just how are CHILDREN supposed to protect themselves from being violated and their lives being ruined from your Sick "rotine" genital exams!!!!? The only way for a child to be protected is for Pediatricians to F@#$!ing STOP THESE SICK "ROUTINE" GENITAL EXAMS AND ONLY RESERVE THEM FOR CHILDREN WHO ARE ACTUALLY HAVING A F#$@!ING PROBLEM/SYMPTOMS BETWEEN THEIR LEGS!!! But I still don't see any of you doctors willing to change anything!
AL
swf, you provided us with an excellent analysis..thanks.
AL, you write "'Whining' about the fact that doctors like yourself apparently, ruined my life and the lives of many other people!!!???" This is exactly what I am defining as an ad hominem remark. I refuse to accept that I am like doctors who you attribute to ruining your life and that of others. To attribute your concerns to all doctors without documentation regarding all doctors including myself is not a behavior contributing to rational discussion.
What you don't seem to understand AL is that your concerns should be raised and settled by the professional organizations which set the standards of practice for pediatricians and all physicians. You are certainly correct that there may be going on an excessive amount of genital examination in children just as I think there is an excessive examination in the pelvic exam and pap smear testing in adult women. However, you shouldn't be attacking the doctors who often have to follow standards of practice which are set by these organizations. Why don't they deviate from those prescribed practices? Fear of a malpractice claim being brought to court against them if pathology is missed is most likely the most common explanation.
So, instead of moaning and groaning and attributing sexual deviancy to all doctors, you and your fellow patients and families should be informing these organizations such as your state medical boards and the American Academy of Pediatrics:
The American Academy of Pediatrics
141 Northwest Point Boulevard
Elk Grove Village, IL 60007-1098
USA
847/434-4000
847/434-8000 (Fax)
Policy site: http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/ (There is access on that page for contacting AAP.
Do what I am suggesting and you will be doing something more constructive than what I see you are doing here. ..Maurice.
"Modesty can often (but not always) be mitigated. Perhaps a same gender caregiver can make the experience tolerable. Perhaps it's perceived respect, draping, closing doors, communicating expectations, etc."
FYI - What again you still don't get and are not acknowleging... and you really need to get, is that for many children, "same gender" doctor, draping, etc would not have meant S#!t!!! Plain and simple many children do not want ANY DOCTOR F#@ing around with their genitals visually or physically in any way, shape, or form...period!!! ...and children should have that right to not be VIOLATED and live in fear of being VIOLATED every year, when they are not having any problems/symptoms between their legs! Until all you doctors acknowledge this, you will be seeing more and more people like myself grow up absolutely HATING all doctors.
I haven't seen any pediatricians or doctors stepping up questioning this so called "standard" that violates and traumatizes children, so then yes, they are ALL part of the problem and will ALL get the same label. They have the clout to change things, not patients, who they don't even listen to and brush off as "delusional" & "crazy".
I also don't see them CT scanning children's bodies every year looking for cancerous tumors... and a lot of kids do get cancer, but guess what, parents are not sueing because their kid didn't get screened for cancer.
BTW pediatricians can deviate from the "standard" if they want and if they have any respect for their pediatric patients. I refused to ever go back to that pediatrician and my new pediatrician knew not to even approach me on genital exams or even bring up the subject after my reaction to the one I had, but unfortunately the damage was already done. I have also seen teen blogs where a few teens mentioned they never had one... so pediatricians can deviate...and there is nothing to miss if the child isn't having problems there!!!
AL
AL:
If you read the entire post you would realize that I actually did make a distinction between modesty and perceived entitlements. And since you wrote " that children (and women) don't F@#$!ing care if your a male doctor or female doctor" then you should realize that the modesty comment had nothing to do with you and your situation. However: some boys and girls and men and women do care, so you can not speak for everyone.
As to children, parents need to step up and be their childs first real advocate. As I see it, they are failing.
Everyone gets to share the blame. And if anyone here is not helping, then they are hurting. If you know it is happening....help change it. Somewhere a child is counting on you.
(Part 1)
SWF
And if you read my post, I said "...for many children, "same gender" doctor, draping, etc would not have meant S#!t!!! "
...I said "many children", not "all children, women, and men"...so where in this statement do I say that I am speaking for "everyone"?!
First pediatricians need to STOP these violating "routine" genital exams on children. No problems or symptoms, then no genital exam and therfore no unnecessary lifelong trauma. However I have no hope of this ever happening because I firmly believe that a lot of pediatricians have a power trip or some other sick need and will resist this change.
But you are correct that some parents (NOT ALL) are failing to be their child's advocate. Some parents blindly go along with whatever the doctor wants (like my parent did) without thinking on their own how is this violating exam could effect my child. THE CHILD NEEDS TO KNOW HE/SHE CAN SAY "NO".
Doctors are not gods that you have to bow down to and worry that you will be struck down by lightning if you tell him/her that you won't submitt your child to that kind of exam. My parent completely failed me 100% and I'm paying the price.
However pediatricians also need to be an advocate as well regarding this issue...THE CHILD NEEDS TO KNOW HE?SHE CAN SAY NO...if the parent fails or is not present at the exam as is common when the exam is at school.
Also, I provided excerps below from bloggers, from the URLs I provided in an earlier posting...just so you know that it's not just me and the life-long trauma is VERY REAL and common and directly leads to not trusting or hating doctors.
"When my family lived in the States my mother was talked into well-child exams. These exams included examination of the anus and genitals (in girls anyway, I'm not sure about boys as I only have one sister).
My sister and I were terribly distressed after this exam and mum decided they were not a good idea. She was a bit shocked about the genital part of the exam, but felt intimidated and didn't object on our behalf. My mother said the emphasis is different in the States, they check that everything is normal, rather than waiting for you to go along with a problem and they check for worms, rather than waiting for you to see a Dr for symptoms.
Our doctors deal with the reason for your visit. I'm pleased we don't have these examine everything exams. I firmly believe they traumatize girls and women. I avoid doctors and I'm sure it was that exam that set up a feeling of unease and fear around doctors."
"I am 39 and have always lived in the States (most of my life in PA - which is known as one of the worst for mandatory school physicals without parents, without consent, WITH a LOT of trauma)"
"I completely remember lots and lots of well-child exams you are speaking of. These are NOT gyn exams though...
THANK GOD they stopped just short of actual penetration with anything or I would surely be in an institution somewhere (either for mental problems, or for murdering one of those involved).
I do NOT believe that my mother had any idea what these exams entailed and I was way too freaked out to ever talk about them (freaked out in me was usually extreme silence for long periods of time until I managed to repress).
If you look all around the internet for school physical forms (for elementary, middle & high school as well as college ... hell even summer camp forms) they all REQUIRE a physical, and nearly EVERY one of them has a section regarding 'genitalia' - some more detailed than others.
How exactly would having 'abnormal' genitals matter when attending day camp?! or kindergarten??"
...
(Part 2)
"Before I found this site I thought that I was the ONLY woman who had nightmares to this day (I am in my fifties) of the "wellness" exams on my genitals when I was a young girl. As that article states, every emotion and feeling stays with you throughout your life - like being raped or molested...
The mind doesn't know the difference of a "professional" violation or one carried out by some stranger in an alley."
"It makes no sense at all, a parent would notice if I child wasn't normal and all babies are checked at birth.
It's totally unnecessary and very damaging psychologically, I'll bet it causes avoidance behaviour (of doctors) in some people - also, I've read these exams can lead some women to promiscuity, they figure their body is not private, they have been violated, have no personal space and low self-esteem. I read an account by an American woman on another forum who blames those exams for her low self-esteem with men, she felt her body had already been violated, so what did it matter if other men did the same thing? She didn't consent to the first violation...it was almost a post traumatic stress reaction.
"No stirrups were not used for these exams, but my legs were spread and there was a LOT of probing with fingers. To be honest I don't know if it was actual penetration as the experience was so horrifying and I do recall pain in the area afterwards.
Those exams have always made me mistrust doctors my entire life. I too wonder just what in the world they were looking for at the time! For quite a while I thought that I perhaps had a child molester as a doctor, until I found this site and learned that other women had experienced the same thing."
"The main situation I remember was a LOT like the situation that was in the news a few years ago when a school in PA had girls examined including genitals AT SCHOOL ... without parental permission.
These girls were between 8 and 11.
IT happened the 1st time to me when I was 5 ... it was at school, and it ruined a part of me. It is very difficult to explain, but I think I would be a different (happier, more carefree) person had this not happened.
It was a horrible betrayal. I loved school. I was a happy kid with no problems at all. Then one day they herded the girls from my class into a room & made us strip.
And one by one they put us on a table and started poking around down there. It sickens me to think about it...
There is absolutely NO justification for doing this to a conscious child."
I know that I would NEVER have discussed what happened with ANYONE ... it was too distressing. Unfortunately that leads to repressing, and lifelong recurrence (nightmares)."
"As a child I would have much preferred your garden variety pedophile molesting me to my revolting old pediatricain molesting me. Yes, once you know that the medical establishment can do whatever the hell they want to you and no one will protect you, you never feel safe or free, or even your own person-the only way out, as with rape victims, is some sort of dissociative disordered doctors are doctors crap, and I was never so good at brainwashing myself.) AND you stop seeking medical help when you actually are sick."
...
(Part 3)
"Yes Lynne, for a long time I hated my pediatrician as a child molesting aberration. (I also thought my parents were uniquely guilty for not protecting me and sending me back to him again and again-yet this is simply how parents are brainwahed into thinking about doctors too.) Yet he was just part of a medical system, that is really just ritualized child abuse. Remember Mcmartin? These are the real ritual abusers."
"Google child molesting pediatricians. You'll come upon sites where adults are speaking up about these horrible childhood exams and finally calling them the abuse that they were. (One is a reaction to the obituary of a "beloved" pediatrician.) Little boys get a lot of unnecessary anal/genital checks too-My brother would always get a prostate check from our gross pediatrician regardless of his illness. Unfortunately I'm betting men are less willing to come forward about childhood medical abuse."
"At least growing up in Australia we didn't have to put up with being abused by doctors at school. I only remember one exam when I was about 10 and we kept our underwear on and I don't remember any fear at all. That was it. Also when my daughter had an operation I stayed with her until she was unconscious. It was only then that they took her underwear off. That is standard practice here. Australian doctors are miles ahead as far as being aware of the psychological damage that these kinds of violations do to children's minds."
"An American friend told me about an experience in a hospital when she was 4...she was stripped naked and surrounded by male doctors who poked and prodded her, she was terrified and had a fit, distressed to the point she actually needed a psychologist to check her later - sobbing, shaking, screaming, scared to death. Her parents were not present...basically this little girl was encircled by strangers, men, poking at her naked body. (she had a skin problem on her arms and face)
It doesn't take a genius to know that experience would be deeply scarring?
Even now she gets upset talking about it and couldn't talk about it for many years. She felt abused and dirty, as a 4 year old!
She decided not to have children because she feared the exposure and loss of control around people she doesn't trust, her abusers. She totally avoids doctors.
"There is no doubt at all that early experiences scar you for life. I do think the acceptance of all these totally unnecessary genital checks and gyn exams in the States makes it easy for abusers, abuser heaven...and is obviously also a great source of income.
I also wonder if it's to strip patients of dignity and power so the Dr runs the show entirely with mainly co-operative patients. I guess that's why it's a huge shock when someone "immature" like us shows up. Heaven forbid if all their patients wise up and fight back."
The life-long trauma of these sick exams is real, not "deluded" or "crazy"!!!
AL
AL: why do you assume that anyone who disagrees with you must be a doctor? I don't see anything about the anon post you refer to being written by a doctor.
Anon Aug 21: it is clear that you are extremely angry and that you at least believe that you have been abused by male doctors. Fair enough. But, with all due respect, your responses are WAY above the pale. You are claiming that ALL male doctors who perform pelvic exams are child-molesting perverts who spent thousand of dollars and many years of their lives in medical school, all just so that they could cop a feel on a few unsuspecting female patients. This is, quite frankly, RIDICULOUS. I suggest that you get some therapy and try very hard to move beyond your obvious obsession with this issue. It can't be doing you any good.
AL:
I think we agree on a few things, although we may have had different experiences that brought us here.
Yes, child abuse in any form is beyond tragic.
Yes, parents often fail to defend the respect children deserve.
Yes, the medical arena needs to change regarding patient respect.
I am well aware of scars that are left when damage is done. I am also aware that many times it is easier to let hate swallow you than it is to rise up and push back. I realize also that people can say they understand but it doesn't erase what happened.
I however, do believe that doctors are listening, and some support change. Dr. Bernstein has given tools to people on this and other blogs if anyone chooses to attempt valid action.
While I realize the title is "I hate doctors", this blog can also serve to say "This is what I expect from doctors, and what I'm doing to get it".
Take advantage of a blog that lets you vent, then move on and use that voice for change. Otherwise you are just avoiding broken glass while letting others get injured by it. Clean it up.
Anon Aug 23:
Damn F@#$!ing right I am angry BUT I'M NOT F#$@!ing CRAZY LIKE YOU ARE CALLING ME!!! Obviously you are blind to the fact that these exams cause children trauma so you are part of the problem! I would hate to be your kid because obviously you wouldn't allow your kid to say NO to these violating exams...allowing your kid to have no say and be traumatized by these unnecessary exams is child abuse and maybe you should go to a therapist to be deprogrammed. I have no F@#$!ING intention of going to a F@#$!ing therapist or "getting over" being abused by my pediatrician and "the system" and will continue for the rest of my life to never trust or let another F@#$!ing doctor near my private parts ever again...to my F@#$!ing grave!!!...but yes I am F@#$!ing angry!!! And until these FORCED "routine" genital exams stop, I will continue to be angry and will let pediatricians and doctors know what I think of them!!!
Dr Bernstein mentioned to go to the medical boards etc. Well I've already seen what their response will be by this blog. Any patient who questions "the system" is "crazy". So maybe I will go to the kids and educate THEM that they can say NO instead.
Quick question for Dr Bernstein... you mentioned that you believe pelvic exams were being done excessively to women which is a positive thing but have you yourself taken any actions in bringing this up with the AMA or Gynecologists etc?
I figured I would ask since again doctors have clout to change these things in the medical associations where patients like me obviously do not since we are considered "crazy".
AL
AL, first let me tell you that we all know that you are angry and we all know about which class of people your anger is being applied so there is no need and no value to continue your diatribe and accusations. Too much noise leads to deafness.
Secondly, yes, I had a commentary published in the American Medical Association NEWS regarding my experience learning and contemplating the postings on the "Patient Modesty" threads on this blog. (non-member access to AMA News article is no longer available)
With regard to the specific issue of unnecessary pelvic exams, I think the issue is more likely related to monetary income to the physician rather than sexual excitement. As far as changing the system, I have no power as one internal medicine physician to change the system's standards of current practice. The real power for change would be an outpouring of activism by large groups of women who are the victims of unnecessary procedures and led by a gynecologist physician who supports the change.
As with the men (and women) who want their voices heard on the "Patient Modesty" thread my advice for your issues: get together and start an activistic campaign for change. ..Maurice.
AL... I did not say you were "crazy". But, judging by your posts, it seems that you're obsessed with this issue to the point where it's interfering with your ability to lead a happy, productive life. This is something that therapy might be able to help you out with. However, if you'd rather continue to be enraged, obsessed and unhappy, that is certainly you prerogative.
Also, I'd just like to point out that your excessive use of expletives is unnecessary and detracts from the credibility of your posts. If you could approach the discussion of this matter with a calmer, more rational tone, your point would come across much more effectively (and other posters would be less likely to judge you to be unstable).
Anon
Sorry but as far as I'm concerned, therapists ARE for crazy people and for people who are weak. I will handle my abuse/violation my own way and on my own and will never involve any psycho BullS@#!t.
Neither I nor any of the other people abused/traumatized by these pediatricians and "the system" asked for this ...it was not only forced upon me, but the other blogs clearly indicate it was forced upon them, and it continues to be forced every day on most kids in our country.
And that train of leading a happy life left back when I was 9. As far as leading a productive life, I have a sucessfull career thanks, guess that would be kind of surprising to you.
As far as my expletives go, I believe that many people (especially doctors) do not acknowledge this particular trauma exists, if they did (and if they cared about and respected their pediatric patients) then they wouldn't keep forcing these "routine" unnecessary violating exams, and this lack of acknowledgement and action pisses me off! Also, my experience has been the opposite, that in being "nice" in many situations, people tend to not not take you seriously and tend to ignore you. I don't run into this at work but this has been especially true dealing with doctors since they don't respect their patients and don't get the message (or in some cases even care to get the message) unless you "yell" in one way or another. I had made sure my new pediatrician got the message from day one and it kept him far away from my privates to the point he knew well not to even bring up the subject. I absolutely hate doctors and always will but if doctors are sick of hearing of all the patients who hate doctors, then they need to respect (first listen to their patients, and ASK permission, rather than DEMAND access to body parts) their patients so people like me don't have to "yell".
AL
AL... You are mistaken if you think therapists are only for "crazy" and "weak" people. Therapists are for people who have the courage to admit that they have a problem, and the strength to seek help in order to solve that problem. The person who continues to allow their mental health problems to control them and negatively effect their lives rather than seeking help is the weak one. I don't know if you have a family or a spouse or not, but if so, how do you think all of your pent up rage and unresolved issues might be effecting them and your relationship with them? Do you think your suppressed rage has a positive effect on this relationship? Do you think it has no effect at all? If so, you are truly deluding yourself. By refusing to seek help and resolve the issues that you have, you are hurting not only yourself, but all those who care about you. Allowing this situation to continue is the true act of weakness.
But, I don't expect you'll take my word for it, so go ahead and carry on with your dysfunction!
OK..now let's stop being critical of one or the other writer here and deal only with the issues under discussion in a general and not a directly personal manner. I am pleased that AL has cut back on her explicatives in her last posting.
Remember, that it is very likely that the issues with medical practice being noted here may need general attention with many patients potentially affected and those commenting here should consider that possibility as valid or not valid rather than picking on the behavior of one or more writers. ..Maurice.
So along the the lines that "issues with medical practice being noted here may need general attention with many patients potentially affected".. I would wonder:
Why do caregivers (in general) seem so opposed to the issue of the term patient being changed to "customer" or "client"? At first it seemed a small issue, but after researching so many medical responses, I see there is resentment behind the change.
Doctors seem open to whichever the current fad is, siting that it doesn't change the quality or motive for care. (If that observation is in error perhaps Dr. Bernstein could correct it.) Nurses, however, like the term patient as it carries with it a feeling of benevolence, and the implication is that they wouldn't 'care' as much about them if they were called clients. Also, comments reflect that they hate the idea that patients would have more input, and the knowledge that they can approve or dissapprove proceedures would now be common knowledge.
I bring this up because we often debate where the changes will come from....Admin. or Doctors, while assuming the middle ground (caregiver)has no real power. We need to realize that patient/client/customer accountability is becoming part of their job and they are fighting it all the way. That reads like power to me.
Everything is built, and ready to be set in motion for change. We can be passive patients and keep things motionless, or we an act like clients/customers and flip the switch.
If you have a voice in your care now...there is no 'hatred' later.
Anon
This is all I am going to say on this subject because it serves no purpose on this thread or any other.
I am sick of being personally attacked by you calling me mentally unstable/"mental health issues"...all the same thing (crazy), because I have a different opinion mostly based on my personal experience but also based on other people with the similar experiences...and obviously I have no right to be angry from my abuse and expressing that anger. The fact that you seem to be implying that NO pediatricians and doctors out there are out to "cop a feel" is also as you had put it, "deluded". Who would ever have thought priests would do what they have done and on such a widespread scale... and they didn't have "routine" access to children's (and women's) genitals.
Also, your opinion on therapists is your own, period.
AL
"I am sick of being personally attacked by you calling me mentally unstable/"mental health issues"...all the same thing (crazy)"
Again, I've never called you "crazy". And I would point out that you've personally attacked me on more than one occasion as well.
"obviously I have no right to be angry from my abuse and expressing that anger. "
Never said this either. I just pointed out that your posts might be more effective if they were less emotional.
"he fact that you seem to be implying that NO pediatricians and doctors out there are out to "cop a feel" is also as you had put it, "deluded"."
Again, never said anything of the sort. I'm sure there are perverts in the medical profession, just as there are pretty much everywhere else. But claiming that all pediatricians are abusive perverts is ridiculous and just plain wrong.
Anyway, good luck in the future. I hope you can find a way to get past your anger and move on with your life.
NOTICE: AS OF TODAY AUGUST 26, 2010 "I HATE DOCTORS: CHAPTER 2" WILL BE CLOSED FOR FURTHER COMMENTS. YOU CAN CONTINUE POSTING COMMENTS ON “I HATE DOCTORS: CHAPTER 3.
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