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Patient Modesty: Volume 75
HOW ABOUT PATIENTS SETTING A LIMIT? Analogous to this posted sign by merchants, it is interesting to read (Volume 74) discussion about possible, potential patient reactions or responses to the behavior of the medical system itself with regard to issues of patient dignity and modesty.
Perhaps, either through regulatory agencies or simply by individual patient actions, the patients' requests will be met. If you were designing a simple sign to be displayed by every patient to "set the limits", how would you design the text or graphics? ..Maurice.
Graphic: From Google Images.
NOTICE: AS OF TODAY MAY 29, 2016 "PATIENT MODESTY: VOLUME 75" WILL BE CLOSED FOR FURTHER COMMENTS. YOU CAN CONTINUE POSTING COMMENTS ON VOLUME 76
158 Comments:
Excellent discussion.
How do you set a limit if they're not respected????
I respect my patients but they can also set their limits through either written or verbal informed consent. ..Maurice.
I hope haykind returns. He describes himself as a psychiatrist in the blogger.com description. There is certainly different dignity/modesty issues between interaction of patients with psychiatrists compared with other physicians. ..Maurice.
Maurice,
Here are a couple pictures that meet your challenge. They are a bit simplistic, but I figure that if some people do NOT realize that PEs on anesthetized patients WITHOUT consent is wrong, we need to take a more remedial approach.
How it Feels
Good Touch, Bad Touch
I also included 2 booklets that I like as well. Unlike others (especially those written by physicians and nurses), these do NOT give a carte blanche pass to physicians (putting them in the same category as parents) to touch.
My Body is Private -Girl
My Body is Private -Boy
Finally, this is what happens when one does not heed the signs. Perhaps this more effective than my first signs.
Bad Touch Doctor (video)
— Banterings
But, Banterings, in those two examples you provided, I can't find the "NO SERVICE" equivalent "threat" which sets the "limit".
..Maurice.
Maurice,
You asked:
"If you were designing a simple sign to be displayed by every patient to "set the limits", how would you design the text or graphics?”
I fall back on the “bathing suit areas” that children are taught as a “no touch zone”. I included the boy and girl booklet for those that may not be familiar with “bathing suit areas” or “good touch, bad touch”.
My final point is perhaps what many physicians fear most, actually committing (sexual) battery (whether accidental, through inattention, or on purpose), OR having actions interpreted as such. This is the "don't tread on me” equivalent for patients.
I can take this concept further; here with a meme of <a href="https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/03/6d/2f/036d2ff5661928b94fa21ec0858df7ff.jpg”>Thomas Jefferson’s quote</a>. Replace “people” with “patients,” “government” with “healthcare,” the “snake” with a “malpractice attorney,” and the “gun” with “law enforcement.”
— Banterings
Banterings and Maria, what I was looking for was, a conclusion in the signage after setting the standards in terms of what the patient insists should not be permitted. The conclusion, like that of the graphic to this Volume "NO SERVICE", may be considered a "threat" but it sets the consequences.
Banterings, the "Don't Thread on Me" statement by Jefferson ended with an implied threat that citizens would fire their guns.
..Maurice.
Maurice,
Try this one:
good touch bad touch sign should suffice. It conveys the message that we are all taught as children, a message that seems to be lost in healthcare.
— Banterings
Pornographic material from Playgirl magazine may be posted and cover the entire walls of the staff nurses bathroom
throughout the hospital, however, signs of any kind must first be approved by the facilities department and then by
Administration. Patients are not allowed to post any kind of signs no matter what the subject content.
PT
PT, got it! No, I didn't start this Volume with the intent to have patients entering the hospital with signs to post at the door of their room or enter the doctor's office with a sign to display to all the waiting patients.
I have appreciated all the descriptions (some lengthy and appropriately detailed) of the patent dignity/modesty issue within the medical system as written by you, Ray, Banterings, et al (including also those of our newer pseudonyms). However, I wanted to see whether my visitors could come up with a succinct description of what the people want their physicians and the medical system to strictly attend to or otherwise face the consequences, such as the example graphic: "NO SHOES NO SHIRT NO SERVICE". Can the desires of patents and the consequences if not followed be summarized with such a "sign"? ..Maurice.
I recently had an ultrasound done. There was a 8mm lump on my right testicle, Scheduled the appointment asap, at the time, all I wanted was to get it checked. The tech was female, only the XRay facility had male techs. Here's what really upset me: she didn't care about modesty issues. Completely lifting the gown till my navel. No sheet was provided to cover regions that the didn't need to see. Only later was a cloth provided to cover my **** once fully pulled back. Didn't like that, can one call this normal procedure ? I thought that only what needs to be seen should be exposed. Report: 8mm cyst.
Maurice
There is no sign that can fully convey the subject matter of this thread wether real, virtual or augmented.
PT
Joseph
I recommend you initiate a complaint online with the ARDMS.Org. This agency regulates all Ultrasound technologists
within the U.S. Once on the site, drop down to the lower portion of the page and click on compliance. You should make a
complaint with the facility as well regarding appropriate draping. There are appropriate protocols for female patients regarding
transvaginal ultrasounds and that protocol is for female patients to be completely covered and a chaperone when the tech is
a male. Male patients should be covered to the extent that only the testicles are exposed. I personally believe that male patients
could be completely covered and the probe manipulated from outside the sheet as are female patients are. But as you all
know it's a double standard.
PT
Why can't there be something written in stone with regards to these procedures. How can one know what's fine and not fine. That's sad. I was asked to completely undo my underpants.( not till the knee).
PT, are you writing that there is no expression of patient concerns and consequence which can be presented to the medical profession in just a few words? To get the views, amply expressed here over the approaching 11 years, succinctly described into one brief order, is an important tool to display to the time conscious medical profession. Or is the doctor-patient relationship so one sided in the power of the doctor that no such expression on the part of the patient be meaningful and obeyed by the profession? ..Just wondering for further contemplation. ..Maurice.
I encourage you all to check out this video about male patient modesty that a man who contacted MPM years ago made.
The video has many great captions. Especially check out the sign a man holds over his private parts that says,"This Area Is Off Limits - Please send a Male Nurse".
Misty
Maurice
Given the architecture and by that I mean rooms, doors and curtains , various infrastructure and signs. Well, people don't
pay attention to signs ,especially road signs. They certainly don't pay attention to them in hospitals. Remember, this problem
is not just about the doctor-patient relationship, but about the entire hospital staff-patient relationship which has failed
miserably. In conclusion, there is no suitable expression that can be conveyed wether written, verbalized or posted.
PT
I think Dr. Bernstein’s idea about patients designing signs limiting what can be done to them due to modesty concerns is very interesting. I actually think this could help in some scenarios. Modest patients can have those signs designed and bring them to the medical facility every time they have to undergo an intimate procedure.
Here are some of my ideas:
1.) A woman who does not want any males to be present for the birth of her child could put up a large sign on the door to her room that says “No Males Allowed”. I believe that at least some male medical personnel would actually heed to that sign. If a male comes in, the husband or the woman could scream, “Get Out of here. Look at the sign that says no males are allowed.”
2.) A male patient who does not want any female nurses or assistants to be present for an urological procedure or exam could put a big sign on the door in his urologist office that says something like “No Females Allowed in This Room Right Now”.
Dr. Bernstein: Can you please ask your students this question: How would they react if they saw sign that said their gender was not allowed in a patient’s room? I think medical professionals are so used to assuming many patients do not care and I think that a sign could help to raise awareness that patient modesty is actually important to some patients.
Misty
Misty
Women don't need signs in L&D since they don't employ male nurses. Those signs would never be needed in
mammography either. The idea is so ridiculously lopsided that it's pathetic. Most people may or may not know that in
most states assaulting a healthcare worker is a felony, yet a nurse on all nurses stated just that. If a male nurse came
into her delivery room she would have her husband throw him out! So, in the interests of fairness let pose the question
to Maurice's students. How would you react if a patient's significant other threatened to throw you out if you came into
their room? Male or female!
PT
Misty
For a moment let's stop picking on Maurice's students and turn our attention to the nursing industry, wherein
the biggest problem lies. Let's ask the nurse instructor what she thinks or rather her nursing students ( female)
if a male patient refused to have female nursing students learning at his expense. We don't need to ask the
male nursing students since they are already excluded from a rotation through L&D. Don't even bother expecting
to see male radiology techs attempting to rotate through mammo. Not even a slim possibility. Would never happen.
I've seen signs and pictures paint a thousand words, as in pornography posted all over the female nurses bathroom
and you don't necessarily need words to convey meaning, you realize the culture by the expression. You can sum it all
by looking at the big picture. Words on signs are useless. The number of males in ob-gyn residency programs are
diminishing while women in urology programs are increasing. This sign concept is a redundancy because it can't be
used both ways. It's not applicable if it's not equitable to both genders.
PT
PT,
Perhaps a better sign is in order. Here is a flag that I made (PS) which representsPatients Fighting for Dignity.
IMHO when a patient wants a gender excluded from their care, a person of that excluded gender ignoring the patient’s wishes are just as much an assault as “the husband throwing them out.” Actually more so because the husband throwing them out is defending his wife from their assault.
The problem with the issue of violence against providers is that the patient in most situations is defending themselves from assaults that have been normalized in healthcare.
— Banterings
PT,
I have really appreciated your insights and contributions to this blog about patient modesty. I support both male patient modesty and female patient modesty equally. I am very disappointed that so many people have fallen to the notion that many male patients do not care about their modesty. The truth is many male patients have actually avoided medical care because they did not want females to be involved in their care. I had the opportunity to educate a female doctor the other day about male patient modesty. She did not seem to realize that many men care about their modesty.
It bothers me that so many urologist offices do not even employ male nurses or assistants when about 75% of their patients are male. It shocks me that many urological practices in larger cities do not even bother to hire male nurses or assistants. This is a very serious problem. One man in Detroit who has been in contact with MPM is very upset that none of the hospitals will accommodate his wishes for an all-male team for prostate surgery. He shared that he found out that they will honor a woman’s wishes for an all-female team. It seems like the hospitals in Detroit think female patient modesty is more important.
You are right that many Labor & Delivery units at hospitals in many states do not employ male nurses. But there are some hospitals in certain states such as Illinois and Utah that employ male nurses. I was surprised to learn that male midwives are common in Utah. I heard that Utah is one of the worst states for patient modesty. Look at this case where a woman in Illinois requested that no male nurses be present for her C-Section and how her wishes were ignored.
Even with hospitals that have L & D Units that do not allow male nurses, there is potential for other male medical personnel such as residents, medical students, scrub technicians to try to come in the rooms of women who have requested no males. This is why the signs are important. One man shared with me years ago he had to block a male scrub technician from coming in the room where his wife was being prepped for C-Section.
As for men who are undergoing urological procedures, there is more potential for females to walk in on them because most urologist offices have a lot of female receptionists. medical assistants, and nurses working for them. It is sad that many women think that male patient modesty does not matter. You do not see male nurses and assistants in most ob/gyn practices.
Misty
Misty,
As to your patient in Detroit:
There are a number of laws that make it illegal to discriminate against customers based on sex (gender). If they are willing to accomodate women and NOT men, then it is gender discrimination. Here are some federal laws and their application:
The strategy was to prove that gender discrimination isn’t just a woman thing, which was incredibly important back when the Supreme Court was completely male and “women’s lib” was considered radical. In Weinberger versus Wiesenfeld (1975), young litigator Ruth Bader Ginsburg successfully argued that a widower whose wife had died in childbirth should get survivor’s Social Security benefits, which at the time were only given to female widows.
Businesses are primarily places of public accommodation. That means they are in business to accommodate the needs of the public. They actively invite and seek the patronage of the public and therefore are subject to the same anti-discrimination laws that protect workers seeking employment or promotion. Specifically, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discrimination and guarantees all persons the right to “full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the grounds of race, color, religion or national origin.”
Banks, credit unions, and other lenders face an apparent regulatory tug-of-war when trying to reconcile two pieces of legislation: The USA PATRIOT Act (“PATRIOT Act”) and the Equal Credit Opportunity Act, implemented by Regulation B of the Code of Federal Regulations (“Regulation B”).
This law also qualifies physicians as lenders (collecting only a copay without knowing if there is insurance in place) and this is why doctor's offices and hospitals require a picture ID (driver's license) befor treating except in an emergency. So lending laws now apply to healthcare as a result of Regulation B.
Regulation B prohibits unlawful discrimination against an individual in a credit transaction based on that individual’s race, national origin, sex and age, among others.
Two federal laws, the Equal Credit Opportunity Act (ECOA) and the Fair Housing Act (FHA), offer protections against discrimination.
The ECOA forbids credit discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, national origin, sex, marital status, age, or whether you receive income from a public assistance program.
Because the patient is charged for a room, laws governing inn keepers (hotels) and housing rentals may also apply. The FHA forbids discrimination in all aspects of residential real-estate related transactions, including:
-making loans to buy, build, repair, or improve a place to live;
-selling, brokering, or appraising residential real estate; and
-selling or renting a place to live
-The FHA also forbids discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, -handicaps, or familial status.
The federal Fair Housing Act of 1968 and the federal Fair Housing Act Amendments Act of 1988 prohibit discrimination on the basis of the following criteria (called “protected categories”): race or color; religion; national origin; familial status or age—includes families with children under the age of 18 and pregnant women; disability or handicap, or sex.
Here is a Federal DOL sign for businesses to display that say discrimination is illegal and how to file a complaint: http://www.dol.gov/oasam/programs/crc/diatl.pdf
You should recommend that this person file a complaint with The Civil Rights Center (DOL). I also recommend he contact the ACLU and file civil lawsuits, starting by citing Weinberger versus Wiesenfeld.
— Banterings
Although this may be slightly off topic, I believe it may be of interest to some readers.
My nephew is currently involved in the college application process. I checked out the websites of the schools to which he has applied and I discovered something I found upsetting.
Although all students at these colleges and universities must pay the health services fee, many of the health centers are staffed by mostly or all female physicians and/or nurse practitioners. Therefore a modest male who needs a sports physical or has some other medical issue which he would prefer to discuss with a male practitioner will be faced with a dilemma. He will most probably have a long wait to see a male (and probably be pressured to see a female in the meantime) or if there are only female practitioners, he will have to go off campus to get services for which he has already paid a fee.
I believe this is a clear case of sexual discrimination against male students which is especially upsetting considering that most if not all of these institutions extol the virtues of diversity in general but hypocritically seem to think that the concept does not apply to medical care.
MG
MG,
I agree with you this is a concern at some colleges. It is sad that they do not seem to take into consideration that many male college students are uncomfortable with females for intimate exams. Are you aware that hernia exams are actually not necessary for sports physicals? We need to educate boys and parents the truth about sports physicals. Hernia exams are only necessary for those who have symptoms. One of MPM’s board members and I wrote this sports physical article together. You will notice that we used Dr. Sherman’s sports physical article as a reference.
Misty
This is my 1st post as I just recently found this blog. I'm a male, 63, married and a Dad & Grand Dad. I am thus old enough to grown up in the 50's - 70's when males were not afforded any modesty consideration. Mandatory group showers, mandatory nude swimming class, as a 6th grader boys lined up in a Middle School hallway in our tighty whities waiting out turn for an all-female provider mandatory physical where when you got into the nurses office with other boys lined up behind you the underpants come down and while in the hallway no consideration at all concerning Middle School girls just walking past us, and so forth. Folks here know the era I grew up in. As a result I am not overly modest in the way young people are today but I absolutely do not approve of gratuitous nudity in medical settings.
It is only from reading blogs like this I now know it is OK to speak up in medical settings. I honestly never thought it was an option before. I thought I just had to tough it out and stay silent.
That said I can say I have at least been treated in a very professional manner these past 11 years in which I have had a couple dozen cystoscopies as followup to a high grade bladder cancer, a year's worth of BCG & Interferon treatments early on, an initial ultrasound, and two surgeries. My surgeon (who also does the cystoscopies) is a male but all of the treatments were done by a female Nurse Practitioner via catheter, all of the cystoscopy prep has been done by a series of nurses, the abdomen & testicular ultrasound was done by a female tech, and the initial surgery included at least 4 female (& 1 male) residents observing. In each case the medical staff worked to minimize my exposure to only that which was necessary (the penis), told me what they were going to do before they did it, and were otherwise very professional in their demeanor. They made what are humiliating processes as minimally degrading as can be done.
One question that is now nagging at me is what went on in the operating room when I was knocked out. Given the respectful manner I have been treated when awake, can anyone here tell me if they'd likely have kept me covered up except for the penis during surgery? In my mind that's what I always assumed but I cringe now thinking about lying there completely exposed with the young interns, nurses, and others in the room. Another question that never occurred to me is would those residents have done any training on me while I was under?
I should add that my modesty focus is primarily driven by my having lost a testicle when I was 11 as a result of a bicycle accident. Though I am OK being nude on my own terms, I still carry an 11 year old boy's shame inside me. Not rational perhaps but it is a source of shame nonetheless and I'd die a thousand deaths if I ever heard nurses talking about the patient with one ball.
Biker from Vermont
Another question which may have been answered these past several years but I have not read through all of the history.
I think my 32 year old married son is one of those males who is avoiding medical care on account of modesty considerations. His last physical was either at 18 when it was required for college or perhaps at 22 if his employer required one when he was hired. My wife is convinced he is having gallbladder problems (she had hers removed at 40 and remembers the symptoms leading up to it). He is overweight and I am concerned about blood pressure and cholesterol too. I want to broach the subject with him privately, including the modesty issue as necessary. If that is the issue I do not know what the source of it is. Past experience, body image issues, or just plain shyness.
Any thoughts on how to assuage whatever his concerns are? Would it be helpful to explain to him my personal history, including my own body image issues? He knows nothing of that and concerning my cancer all he knows is I had surgery, treatments, and many followups. I've never given him the details of what it all consisted of.
Thanks again.
Biker in Vermont
Oops. I just saw I varied slightly in my signature. Bike from Vermont is Biker in Vermont. Sorry for the inconsistency.
WELCOME TO SOME NEW CONTRIBUTORS HERE!
Some of the comments here deal with gender. KMD has a post (The gender gap persists in medicine. What can we do about it?) written by a female physician that is just short of (male) sexism.
I made the following comment:
"The gender gap does persist…
Just try to request a male nurse or male imaging technician."
Link:
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2016/03/the-gender-gap-persists-in-medicine-what-can-we-do-about-it.html
— Banterings
Two questions.
For the doctors here, for non-emergency surgery is it acceptable to ask to not be anesthesized until the prep work is complete? This would better assure that at least the prep work was done in a professional manner. Though I said in in an earlier post I have been treated very professionally these last 11 years, there was one exception to that. For the initial surgery after I had stripped down and was waiting to be anesthesized and brought into the operating room, the operating room nurse assigned to me made a very inappropriate sexual innuendo comment. She said "I'm going to get to know you real well" in a manner that left no doubt it was sexual in nature. This is partly behind my question should I need surgery again. I never registered a complaint because I knew they'd never believe me, and with the way it was back in the 50's - 70's growing up I knew men were supposed to just grin and bear indignities. Now I know better, hence my question.
My second question is a teaching hospital one. Assuming I am told there will be Residents joining the party before going into surgery, is it acceptable to ask them exactly what they will be doing during surgery? Observing is very different than participating. Participating in the actual surgery is very different than seizing the opportunity to practice with an unconscious patient.
In my case the surgery would likely be bladder cancer should it recur (surgeon says I have a 3% chance in any given year). That means potentially practicing inserting catheters for example.
Thanks
Biker from Vermont
I have gone a little in arrears catching up on some of the discussions and would like to comment on the issue of medical students practicing on each other.
I don't care one way or the other whether they practice on each other or not but the fact that their medical or nursing school doesn't provide enough bodies to be practiced on does not entitle them to practice on me without my express permission. My nature is to be accommodating and I will to the extent I am comfortable with what is requested, but I must be politely asked first. Going forward anyone who just waltzes in and tells me they are going to do something as part of their training will be told no they are not going to do anything.
Even if politely asked there are some things I will say no to. I will and have allowed a woman to catheterize me dozens of times but I will never allow a woman to bath me or if necessary for surgery allow a woman to shave my groin. That may seem silly given how personal catheterizations and other intimate medical procedures (testicular sonogram, vasectomy, colonoscopies) I have had performed by women are, but it is not silly to me and it is where I draw my personal line. I do require that all intimate care minimize nudity to that which is absolutely required however.
The other thing I will not allow is anything duplicative. It is one thing to do something in lieu of the regular doctor or nurse doing it. It is another to do it in addition to what the regular doctor or nurse did.
OK, I'm clearly screwing up on the identifying myself piece having not put anything at all on the last post and so I am trying to get myself identified as Biker in Vermont in the heading so as to preclude having to remember to sign posts. You can just call me Biker. Hopefully I did that right.
First, thanks to Dr. Bernstein and the rest of the folks here for such an excellent discussion forum. As I have spent some time reading some of the past discussions it has helped me realize that men don't have to quietly accept health care indignities. I had just quietly gone with the flow so many times that I told myself I'm not overly modest and its OK. Its easier to accept embarrassing situations that way I suppose. Concern for my son who I suspect is avoiding healthcare over modesty concerns has made me realize that I need to help him understand that the choices don't have to be either foregoing healthcare or taking the same path I did. He can demand he be respected as a patient.
There is another piece to this that I think providers are missing that speaks to male modesty. This is telling them what procedures entail when the procedure is being scheduled. Doing so might allow the patient to make modesty related requests. By way of example when my primary care physician suspected I might have bladder cancer after finding microscopic blood in my urine and ruling out other more benign possibilities he ordered an ultrasound at the local hospital. He did not explain to me what the ultrasound would actually consist of and I'm assuming the test would be looking at my bladder. Not an unreasonable assumption I think for someone who has never had an ultrasound or been told he might have bladder cancer. I show up for my appointment and a female tech comes to get me. I'd really have preferred a man but I figure this isn't a big deal and don't ask the question. We go into a room and she tells me to strip and put on a gown. That was surprise one because I thought all I'd need to do is pull up my shirt and pull my pants/underwear down a bit. I suck it up silently as all compliant males are supposed to do and get on the table wearing a gown. She was very professional and tried to minimize my exposure by immediately covering my genitals with a cloth when she pulled the gown up. She proceeds to do an ultrasound of my entire abdomen. Then comes surprise two. She pulls the cloth back and starts doing a testicular ultrasound. Again to her credit as a professional she tried to keep the penis covered but for me it is a totally humiliating event at that point. Though she did try to minimize my exposure I do fault her in that had she explained the whole process to me when she 1st got me from the waiting room (and before I undressed) I might have requested a male do the test. I also fault my primary care physician who either incorrectly assumed I knew what the ultrasound would consist of or worse he figured it wouldn't matter on account I'm a guy. Had he explained it to me I'd of requested a male tech at the time the appt. was made.
Of course being a medically compliant male back then I didn't complain to either of them.
Biker in Vermont
@BikerInVermont,
After having read what you wrote, I can tell that she was more professional than mine and kept everything to a minimum. I had mine and wasn't covered waist down when my gown was lifted. Was only given a cloth to hold once my position was ideal for the tech to perform a Ultrasound( was asked to maintain a position). At the time I just complied not knowing if the lump was a mass or just a cyst. It was humiliating to be exposed that way.
Joseph, except for the sexual innuendo by the operating room nurse before I was put under, the several dozen intimate exposure processes I have had these past 11 years due to the bladder cancer have been professional in the manner that they minimized my exposure to only that which was necessary. Of course when it is the penis that is necessary to be handled and kept exposed it is still about as intimate a medical process as a guy can have. I am somewhat embarassed that is only now occurring to me that I was entitled to request males do the catheterizations. My guess is that the answer would have been no being I have never seen a male in that medical practice other than a couple doctors. Regardless I didn't know it would have been OK for me to at least ask.
On the topic of trusting nurses to be professional, back when I was 30 I had a vasectomy being we were done having kids. The doctor (male) and nurse (female) didn't seem to have any concern for my modesty. Nothing was covered or shielded from view. Having lost a testicle at age 11, I went into that process totally embarrassed knowing a female nurse would be there and me still carrying a heavy dose of shame. The nurse then proceeded to make it all the worse by asking an unnecessary question rather than go with the flow of what was obvious to anyone in the room and which the doctor already knew. She embarrassed me needlessly.
Another aspect of always worrying about whether any given female nurse will behave professionally or not is that one of my neighbors at the time was an operating room nurse at that hospital. At the time we lived in a new subdivision where the adults were all close in age and the kids were all close in age. It was a very social neighborhood with lots of gatherings. It was known that I was going to have it done and some of the women in the neighborhood were hoping Jane was going to be my nurse and that she'd report back to them as to what she saw. I'm thinking Jane would never have done that but I couldn't know for sure given the way women talk about personal things. I know a couple of them would have asked. I dreaded going there that day not knowing who the nurse would be. Fortunately it wasn't her.
That's quite a nosy neighbourhood if they got to know about your surgery. Being a outpatient procedure, that was quite some pre-op news to them. Next time, only those that matter should know. Medical confidentiality after all.
Biker in Vermont, et al,
Good news! The times, there are'a changing…
There is a new paradigm in healthcare and that is ceding power to patients.
This is what I have been prescribing for years to fix the healthcare system.
WATCH THE VIDEO and read about it here: http://madmanbanterings.blogspot.com/2016/03/patient-paternalism.html
Happy Easter to all.
— Banterings
Joseph, the neighbor nurse was not present for the vasectomy but being she was an operating room nurse at that hospital she might of been which is what I was concerned about. I always viewed her as a professional and probably she wouldn't have said anything but I had no way of knowing which is why I was apprehensive that she'd be there. That I did end up with a nurse who behaved unprofessionally as concerns my missing testicle only served to affirm my initial apprehension.
Men never talk out of school about very private things but women often do. It is a men are from Mars and women are from Venus kind of thing I think.
That was all a long time ago. At my age (63) I have seen a shift to where men are afforded more privacy and respect than used to be the case. Having a male nurse or a male tech is only rarely going to be an option these days but from where I have been most women medical professionals have cleaned up their act relative to the way it used to be. In the old days we received no consideration. Now we get some. In the future hopefully we'll get as much consideration as women.
Well my son and his wife came up for Easter and I got some alone time with him this afternoon to talk about this. I know he was listening to what I had to say and that he understood it intellectually but he really wasn't getting it at a visceral level. At 32 he hasn't been hospitalized or had outpatient surgery. His experience with the medical system has been limited to a few physicals with his male doctor. He is too young to have experienced even the unprofessional and disrespectful school or sports physicals of old. He doesn't take crap from anyone and could not conceive how he might be disrespected in a medical setting in the manner of the discussions on this forum. In his mind he'd just set them straight and all would be well. He'll likely have to learn the hard way. Maybe part of the problem in effecting change is that even in the male community there are many who have not had bad experiences.
Being his experience is limited to a few routine physicals, I tried making it real by asking how he'd feel if in the midst of a physical an 18 year old woman comes in under the guise of chaperone, scribe, or medical assistant to observe his prostate and testicular exams. All I got was a smart alack answer that it depends upon what she looks like. I told him he won't think its so funny when it happens but just remember that he can take a stand that she leaves or the physical is over.
Hopefully he'll remember the discussion when it happens to him. I suspect he will.
I wanted to talk about the "we're all professionals" aspect of the female medical care providers bullying routine. In nursing homes and hospitals much of the lower end care (bathing and such) is handled by CNA's. I thought to look at what their qualifications are here in Vermont where they are called LNA's (Licensed Nursing Assistants).
All that is required here is that you are 18 years old, had 75 hours classroom lecture and clinical training, 30 hours of working under the supervision of an RN, and pass a test to be licensed. You do not have to be a high school graduate even. I have a hard time accepting that an LNA should be considered a professional.
To be employed as a Medical Assistant in Vermont all you need is someone willing to hire you and call you a Medical Assistant. To be certified as a Medical Assistant (which presumably most medical facilities prefer) you need to either have graduated from a medical assisting training program or the equivalent military training or have relevant work experience, and then pass an exam. I believe you also have to be a high school graduate or have a GED. Again, I hardly see where Medical Assistants can expect to be considered medical professionals.
The requirements are going to vary from State to State but I doubt any require a 4 year college degree for these certifications/licensing.
Just something else to keep in mind when someone is bullying you to accept a low level employee as a professional.
Biker in Vermont
Where is this shift you see that men are afforded more privacy? I don't see it, what has changed? Show me where " women
professionals" have cleaned up their act? Where are the indicators? I see more and more nurses with gang tattoo's on their
arms and necks. Have you looked at board actions on nursing websites lately. More and more nurses are reprimanded for
drug diversion, boundary violations and lying to the board about criminal records. Nothing has changed, nothing!
PT
PT, I see the improvement in the 2 to 3 dozen catheterizations I have had done by female nurses and a female NP over the past 11 years. Every single one was done in the exact same manner with no gratuitous nudity ever. Yes my penis is exposed but it has to be, but the rest of me is kept covered so I never feel like I am laying there naked. None of them have ever done or said anything that embarrassed me. Absolutely I am self conscious having a woman handle my penis for these procedures but that is different than feeling like they have not respected my privacy. At the beginning of the process I as well had a testicular ultrasound by a female tech. Like the others she kept me covered as best could be done and she did not do or say anything that embarrassed me. I was hugely self conscious as is to be expected but there is nothing more she could have done to put me at ease.
I have had 3 bad intimate care experiences in my life which percentage-wise puts it in the single digits but for me each was traumatic enough that I am always wary of female medical staff. Given the choice I will always pick a male for intimate care. Regretfully we rarely get to choose anything more than our doctors, and in my case I always choose male doctors. I will never go to a female doctor if I can avoid it. Those 3 bad nurses are the reason.
What is different for me now is that I will speak up loud and clear if I am ever disrespected by any doctor, nurse, or tech be they male or female. The other thing as I noted in another post is that I will never allow a woman to shave my pubes nor will I ever allow a woman to bath me again. Being bathed was my very first bad nurse experience. To make clear my vehemence on this point, never would I allow myself to be bathed even by the nurses that I trust to do my catheterizations. It is a line that will never be crossed.
I fully agree with Biker: "Speak Up Loud and Clear". Believe it or not, the doctor-patient relationship must (and I emphasize must be looked upon as an equal relationship. No matter what professional skills the physician has surpassing the knowledge and skills of their patient, the patient will be the one, by their intent and actions, allow the knowledge and skills of the doctor to have accomplished the intended goal of relief of suffering, diagnosis and cure.
It is my opinion and this is what I teach: a physician who does not listen to the patient (but most importantly encourage the patient to "speak up") is handicapping him(her)self and the patient and is not meeting the goals of being that professional.
There is more to listening to the patient in order to get a list of symptoms. The list of symptoms is only part of the anatomy of the patient's illness. The "wants" and "needs" of the patient is also part of the listening for it is satisfying these elements which will make a final cure the most likely conclusion. Yes, one can say that the "needs" of the physician is also important but satisfying those "needs" is certainly not the reason and goal why a patient selects and begins the doctor-patient relationship. And the sooner doctors and the medical system regain (lost in modern times) this understanding, the sooner the professional goals that we teach first and second year medical students will be finally attained. So, thanks Biker for reminding this thread on what is necessary: "speak up!" ..Maurice.
As I have poked around a bit more in old discussions there is one that I want to put my two cents in. This is Residents practicing pelvic exams on sedated women having surgery. I am absolutely appalled that any doctor could defend such a barbaric practice on the premise that patients "owe" it to students to let them practice without the patients express consent.
To any male doctor that thinks it is OK for my wife or daughter to be used in this manner I ask whether they'd be OK with it if it were their wife or daughter. To any female doctor that condones such acts, I say would you be OK with Residents practicing on their husbands and sons. My guess is that Residents would never practice on the wives, daughters, husbands, or sons of their fellow doctors. Hello double standards.
I actually take it a step further, if such things are OK, why aren't the wives and daughters of doctors being volunteered for such things at medical schools and teaching hospitals? They could be sedated so they'll never experience the assaults live.
The word barbaric is not an overstatement. My wife has had 4 inpatient surgeries in the past 6 months and will have another next month. Three will have been at a prestigious teaching hospital and two at a major regional hospital that surely has Residents. At the moment I don't want to upset her by even telling her such things occur.
My wife just passed this story of a 27 year old nurse in Albany, NY who had to surrender her license as part of a plea deal after getting caught taking penis photos of unconscious men and disseminating them. I give the hospital credit in that it was other nurses who saw her do it and turned her in, plus the hospital fired her immediately. Maybe this is a step in the right direction.
http://cbs6albany.com/news/offbeat/nurse-convicted-of-snapping-photo-of-unconscious-patients-penis-surrenders-license
Biker, I agree that the case of the nurse in Albany has some positive aspects. However, I would be more encouraged had the nurse been tried for the felony with which she was initially charged. The surrender of her license was part of a plea deal that reduced her charge to a misdemeanor.
I'm fairly certain that a felony conviction would have led to the revocation of her nursing license, anyway. So, I can only conclude that the prosecutors determined that the case was not important enough to warrant the more serious charge. If true, that is less than encouraging.
Re: Biker in Vermont and the nurse taking pics of unconscious naked men and sending them to people..
losing her license and 3 years probation is nowhere near harsh enough sentence.
She should receive jail time, not just told to behave, iphone pics are time stamped and dated when they're taken so it wouldn't be that hard to track down who the guys were if no faces were shown, and each of them should be notified and sue both her and the hospital.
And like when hackers are barred from being able to use computers, she should receive a lifetime ban from working in any kind of medical field / setting, owning or operating a cell and a lifetime ban on using a camera.
These are people we're SUPPOSED to entrust with our lives. such a breach of that trust should be responded to with swift and furious consequences. If nothing else, to serve as a warning to others who are tempted to violate patients.
Jason K.
Jason, I understand that the men were identified and notified. The articles didn't say whether the men have filed suit against the woman and the hospital. Hopefully they do. I would.
I agree that jail time would have been in order but the fact that other nurses turned her in, the hospital fired her immediately, and her nursing license has been pulled is a huge step forward. I suspect in the past she'd not have gotten anything more than a meaningless reprimand. Small steps forward are better than none.
Biker in Vermont
With this latest article on Yahoo about this female nurse taking pictures of her male patient's genitals. Do you still think the industry
has " cleaned up their act". Let's forward this to the ANA and see what they think!
PT
Bet you five bucks the article doesn't appear on allnurses!
PT
Hello All:
The nice nurse from upstate NY who was charged after taking picture of an unconscious patient’s penis should NEVER have been given a choice between losing her license & being charged with a felony.
The criminal justice system has yet again done a HUGE injustice to ALL male patients everywhere.
She should have been charged with a felony, lost her license and, had to register as a sex offender for 10 years.
She was charged with moral unfitness in the practice & handed probation.
And people wonder why men myself included, have walked away from getting needed healthcare.
What kinda message does this send?
Go ahead & take all the pics you want, just don't get caught you might lose your license.
I don’t know if it’s practical but, maybe it's time to pass a law that states no healthcare worker may carry a cellphone with a camera on their person while on duty. It must remain locked in their locker during their shift or at home. If they get caught with one, automatic termination no questions asked.
If they really need a phone they should get a phone without a camera & swap out the sim card from their smartphone into their camera-less phone when they are heading out to work.
Problem now is she might do just what that anesthesiologist that got caught & fired did. Pickup stakes & go to another state & pick up where she left off.
If people who are in need of healthcare services won't go to a hospital because they are afraid of what the techs, nurses, and/or doctors might do to them when they are at their most vulnerable then there is a problem with the system as it is today & ALL government regulatory agencies, & the congress if necessary must work with the public and pass new laws with real bite in them to protect patients since the healthcare industry has proven without a doubt over & over again that they will just ignore this & hope it blows over.
Before all trust in healthcare workers is gone, this issue must be dealt with & swiftly.
It's time for patients everywhere to take a stand on this.
Do you want it stopped? Then it's time to talk to as many people as you can & get them involved.
The more voices that speak up about this, the less they can ignore us & push it back under the rug.
Thanks for listening.
Regards,
NTT
PT:
It will it will show up on allnurses when I win powerball or megamillions.
Regards,
NTT
You owe me $5 PT. There is a thread on allnurses. So far nobody is condoning her actions.
http://allnurses.com/nursing-news/nurse-takes-pic-1044201.html
I find it peculiar this nurse sharing these photos with her co-workers. From my perspective there was trust, a common interest
perhaps in this kind of thing. I think her co-workers probably felt on edge that they would be caught not reporting this kind of
thing and bailed on her. I find it disturbing the police did not charge her with a felony and voyerism in most states with an
electronic device is a class 4 felony.
If you consider the behavior with her taking pictures on her cell phone vs exposing her patient unnecessarily to other staff which
is common among nurses particularly female nurses and their male patients, I don't see a difference. The laws are blind to this
kind of indifference and only recognize it when an electronic device is used. Many state nursing boards have in their guidelines
provisions regarding unnesessary exposure of patients and consider it sexual misconduct but try to find a nursing board or
anyone who enforces it. Finally, for all the readers here the one and only reason why you know about this particular case is
just because the police were involved and thus the news were notified. This kind of behavior is rampant in healthcare.
And no it has not been getting better.
PT
Hello Everyone.
Here's another incident of Doctor sexual assault. Seem's like it's becoming a daily affair. Just google ( Former plover doctor charged with sexual assault ). AL
Good Morning:
I agree with you PT it's not getting better.
State nursing boards won't be much if any help as is with my state, there are seven board members all women five of which are RN's along with two members from the public.
The deck is stacked against the patient everywhere you go.
I've written my two state senators asking them to look into this.
Other than staying away from healthcare.
Making the public in general aware there is a growing problem in our hospitals that they don't want you to know exists that could one day adversely effect them.
Pressuring prosecutors and court judges to stop making "deals" with these people & start charging them with a felony crime when applicable which in turn would give the hospital some bad press.
I don't know of any other way to bring the industry to the table & admit there is a problem, they need help, and they really want to solve this problem before more people are needlessly humiliated and lives destroyed for absolutely no reason other than some nurses wanting to get their jollies at the patients expense.
I'm open to suggestions as to what more patients can do to force this issue.
Regards to all,
NTT
Feeling newly empowered I posed a few questions today with whoever it was that called me back concerning making an appt. for what would be just a routine periodic colonoscopy. I had moved since my last one and so this would be with a new practice. Not sure if she was a clerk or a nurse there.
She wanted to just make the appt. but I said before that I have a few requests. I said I didn't want to be knocked out for the procedure. She tried telling me that I wouldn't be under anesthesia but would rather be in a twilight. I said I've had it done twice before and their twilight is essentially the same as being knocked out if I'm not conscious enough to even know who is in the room.
I then move onto who is allowed in the room during the procedure besides the doctor and nurse. She didn't seem to understand the question and so I threw out a hypothetical salesman drops by. I get a "oh no that wouldn't be allowed". I say OK, what about other staff such as the receptionist or a nurse poking their head in saying they've got so and so on the phone can I ask you a quick question. After a brief hesitation she says she doesn't know who would be there and that I can tell one of the nurses of my privacy concerns when I am being prepped. I told her that though my experience with intimate care has largely been very professionally handled, I have had a couple bad experiences and that being I have no experience with their practice I will insist with the nurses that my privacy be respected rather than deal with the issue in arrears if it isn't.
Lastly I tell her I will want to see any forms they want me to sign ahead of time on account nurses always rush patients to sign off. She tells me that being they'd require me to be there an hour ahead of time there would be plenty of time. I tell her no I want to see them prior to that day and she says I could come by the office and ask for them.
She then says let her do some research on my questions and get back to me next week. I am expecting they will decline to take me as a patient as it sure felt like I was being labeled a problem patient sight unseen. We'll see. If nothing else I will have raised a couple issues with them that might be that seed that starts to have them think about the patient.
Hopefully they don't decline me being this is a rural area and they are the only gastroenterologists for at least an hour in any direction, and those are going to be small operations as well. More populated areas with multiple choices are at least two hours away.
It did feel good to speak up rather than quietly grouse about it. Thanks Dr. Bernstein and all the other contributors who have helped educate and empower me!
Biker in Vermont,
I recommend you take time to read this article about modesty during at colonoscopy. You also should look at the story of James who had a good experience with colonoscopy because he took steps to ensure his wishes were honored. He was fully awake for his colonoscopy.
Misty
Re: Biker in Vermont
- about asking who would be allowed in the room, and her "eventually" saying she had no idea who'd just pop their head in... you should ask if you're allowed to have a spouse / significant other / whoever present to ensure the door remains shut during the procedure, and what the consequences would be for anyone who "accidentally" opened the door would be. (could also throw in that "this way I know you guys don't have one of those nurses like from new york that thinks it's funny to snap pics of patients and getting her jollies at my expense")
even if you have no intentions of bringing someone, their reply would be a good gauge of how open they are to working with you.
Jason K
Thanks Misty and Jason. On the off chance the doctor or nurse is willing to discuss this further with me I wrote down the names of the drugs to refuse per the article Misty posted. If I am reading his bio right the doctor apparently was put through medical school by the military and then went into private practice after his required service was complete. My dentist did the same thing. I'm thinking the military background might either mean nobody is allowed to question him or he's fine with having a patient willing to endure a little pain in exchange for consciousness. I'll see next week when I hear from them.
Part of what is driving me of course is that I want to be awake so as to know who is there and what they are doing. Another part however is that I do not react well to anesthesia or the versed type drugs. After surgery under anesthesia it takes me hours to wake up in the recovery room to the point that the nurses are getting annoyed with me for not remaining conscious when they're trying to wake me up, and then being too groggy for a period after I do come to. I'm then nauseous even if I had gotten anti-nausea medicine via IV, and I am generally sick for a period. I have had two colonoscopies previously with the versed and again I have a hard time coming to afterwards, and I will be nauseous and ill for a period when I do come to.
Between growing up in the 50's-70's when guys were afforded no consideration at all and the sheer number of times I have had intimate care by females I am not overly modest anymore. I don't have body image issues other than still being self conscious over my long ago lost testicle. My primary issue is being treated with respect. In the majority of cases I have been treated professionally by female medical personnel but I have been disrespected badly on several occasions. I'd prefer males only for intimate care/exposure but I accept that is not generally going to be an option. I always go with male doctors being that is a piece that I can control. As noted before I do draw a line with being bathed or shaved by a female. I will forego healthcare if I can't be accommodated in those two areas.
Being treated professionally requires virtually no effort at all yet some still don't get it. Viewing my naked body is not a spectator sport. If you are not there delivering my care you shouldn't be there nor should I be in view of anyone because you chose not to close the curtain or door or because you seem to think it is OK for the receptionist or anyone else to just barge in while I am exposed. I expect to be kept covered except as absolutely required. If you need to look at my abdomen first cover my bottom half and then lift the gown up from underneath for example. Unless the fact that I only have one testicle is pertinent to the medical procedure it is not a topic to be commented on. If you are bathing a man that only has one arm you wouldn't feel compelled to say "I see you only have one arm", so don't comment about my testicle either. I have had that happen though not in a bathing scenario. It was beyond humiliating.
I am also OK if there are students there to observe IF I am asked first, am introduced to them, and observing my procedure is actually pertinent, such as being Urology Residents for example. Teenagers in training to be a CNA on the other end of the spectrum do not have a good reason to be there and I would say no. Being respectful of my nakedness requires that I have a say in who the observers are.
I really don't think I am asking for anything even remotely unreasonable or onerous for any healthcare provider to accommodate.
On searching the internet for information concerning male and female preference for primary care providers, I was surprised by how little information I was able to locate. However, I did find one study that I think sheds some light on the subject.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1495609/table/tbl5
Although the study was concerned with patient satisfaction, I think the number tell us something definitive. The study was done In California and it is important to note that all of these patients CHOSE their physicians.
Among the female patients 1,007 chose female PCP’s while 1, 759 chose male PCP’s. On the surface this may seem unusual because there are certainly many modest women but there is one important difference for a women who chooses a male PCP. My wife has had a male PCP for years but he has never seen or examined her intimate areas. He deals with all other aspects of her health but if an intimate exam or procedure is needed it is done by my wife’s female gynecologist.
The situation for males is completely different. A physical exam done by his PCP will often involve a hernia check, testicular exam, and later in life a prostate exam. The numbers her are hugely different. 1,734 males chose a male physician while only 248 chose a female physician, a margin of about 7 to 1. I think this tells us a lot about male modesty regarding intimate exams.
Those of us who refuse intimate exams by females are outliers, not because we refuse to co-operate when not given a choice of provider gender but because we are the ones who actually speak up about the issue and refuse. When choice is available this study indicates that the great majority of males prefer male PCP’s.
MG
Hello:
MG, early on I walked away from many medical situations because of preference.
I've learned over time to ask up front before anything is setup, who I'm going to be dealing with. If it's a female I tell them make the appt. with a male if no male is available, don't make the appointment until they hear from me.
What really gets me is the medical community knows full well MANY men have caregiver preferences but because they don't want to seem or show weakness they will not open their mouths and say something.
Knowing this is happening, the medical community as a whole should without question just start assigning male caregivers to male patients until said patient says differently.
It would solve the problem.
Having a male tech available on all shifts to take care of men's needs would also go a long way to fix the problem.
I know it's only a dream. But it's a great one. :)
Thanks for listening,
NTT
Female nurses do their best to look at your peepee while you are a patient. Now as we have seen they take pics of it and send them
to other staff. Much gossip is made about male patient's peepee's by nursing and hospital staff. There is much written about this
on their nursing websites, openly admitting they take notice. Many many patients have had tubes inserted in their peepee's when
the need is unwarranted and many have died from infection and complication. Now some patients have had their peepee's stolen
from their bodies as was the case at a hospital in Scottsdale,1995 but despite a $10,000 reward, the peepee was never found.
If that's not disturbing enough many patients have had their peepee's struck by a metal spoon in past days by nursing staff simply
because a reflexive action of the peepee was inappropriate. Sometimes this resulted in a peepee that only shot blanks. Now a
non-functioning peepee will be the brunt of many jokes both on and off television. So much so that the pharmaceutical companies
saw the need to have women come on and tell us that a non-functioning peepee is ok, but that there is medicine for this.
It seems now that female nurses are not the only ones who take pictures of patient's peepees. Male physicians have now joined
the ranks of taking pics of patient's peepees. Why, these male physicians are married men. Why is there so much attention placed
on peepees. Most of this blog is devoted to the lack of privacy for the peepee and it just seems that it will never end. I do not believe
there are cases whereby the female genetalia have been photographed by both male and female hospital staff.
PT
I hear you MG & NTT but the reality is that there are not enough male nurses & techs to go around. Other than the doctors I have never seen a single male nurse or tech at the urology practice I have gone to for the past 11 years. My doctor is amongst the elite urologic oncologists in the country and so if I want him I have to accept being catheterized by women.
What we need is a form of affirmative action to bring more males into the nursing & medical tech fields. Advertising campaigns, scholarships etc. This is partly how women broke the barrier into traditionally male career domains. Regretfully, political correctness would never allow anything that primarily has white males as the beneficiary.
MG, those survey results make perfect sense to me.
Good Morning:
PT, you are correct in that there are very few cases whereby the female genitalia have been photographed by both male and female hospital staff. The male nurses I've talked to all say they have better things to do with their time like take care of their patients. One male told me in his hospital, gossip is rampant by the ladies when a new male patient comes into their ER or on one of the medical floors.
Not to say male nurses are angels. There are cases where male nurses have been accused of sexual assault on their female patients. If those cases prove to be true, the guy should have his license permanently revoked, charged with the crime then put it prison where he belongs. There's no room for people like them in the healthcare industry.
Biker I'm curious. Have broached the subject of using male caregivers for male patients with your doctor? It might help new male patients with modesty issues coming into see the doctor.
Thanks for listening.
Regards,
NTT
I'd like to introduce another aspect of the issue to the conversation. It is the term professional as in "we're all professionals here". The word has been so over-used throughout society at this point so as to be almost meaningless. It used to be that professionals were people with advanced education and training such as doctors and lawyers. Now even a CNA is deemed a professional.
It varies by State but here in Vermont an LNA (Licensed Nursing Assistant....our equivalent of CNA's) is only required to have 75 hours schooling (lecture & clinical) and 30 hours supervision by an RN in a work setting, and of course pass a test. A high school diploma or GED is not required in order to be licensed. To be licensed as a barber requires 1,000 hours of schooling and a high school diploma. So please forgive me if I do not consider LNA's/CNA's to be professionals. They are trained to perform certain tasks is all. Many other lower level people in the medical field similarly have no claim to being considered professionals.
My guess is that when they say "we're all professionals here" that what they really mean is "we all behave in a professional manner". If they insist upon talking down to patients I'd much prefer they at least say it correctly. Conversely maybe they really do think they are professionals. That's scary if true.
I've got an MBA and retired from corporate America as an Executive Vice President & Chief Financial Officer. I do not want to be lectured by someone who hasn't graduated high school that she's the professional in the room and shouldn't be questioned. Instead I am totally open to her telling me she knows that for some the procedure can be embarrassing or make a guy feel self conscious and that she treats all her male patients with consideration and respect in minimizing their exposure. In a nutshell telling me she is professional in the manner she performs her duties. Being a professional and acting in a professional manner are very different things. Acting in a professional manner also requires doing your best to accommodate a guy that requests a male perform the task.
Just barging in, declaring oneself to be a professional, and demanding compliance on the basis that they consider themselves to be a professional is a very unprofessional way to interact with patients. That is something I wish they would teach in nursing schools.
There are enough male nurses, techs and cna's to go around. The problem is if you are a male medical assistant who is going
to hire you? You cannot get a job at a dermatology clinic, family practice, orthopedist, plastic surgery, gynecology , urgent care,
pediatric clinic nor urology clinic. No one is going to hire you.
You chances are virtually nil, it is a dead end career yet female medical assistants flourish and prosper at urology clinics in
particular. it makes no sense from the patient experience regarding male patients. Let's look at the problem, who does not
want male medical assistants at urology clinics. First, the urologists in that they influence the manager to hire all female medical
assistants, particularly if it is a large urology practice. The vast majority of urology patients are male accounting for about 75%
of the urology patient population. The influence is not from the female patient, rather it comes from within the practice.
PT
NTT, the only time I have ever been alone with my urologist was when he did a prostate exam the week prior to my initial surgery 11 years ago. That was the 1st time I met him. The rest of that visit my wife was in the room with me but he asked her to leave when he did that exam. The discussion at the time was about bladder cancer and what the surgery would be. I then spoke with him on the phone after the surgery when he called to tell me what type of cancer I had and how he proposed to treat it. With all of my many visits since then the nurse is alone with me for the prep. He then comes in, does his exam of the bladder & occasionally a prostate exam, and tells me the results of the cystoscopy and whatever other tests I might have had beforehand. He then exits the room leaving me alone again with the nurse. It would be awkward talking about his lack of males on staff with his female nurse standing right there. This guy is head of urology at one of the major hospitals in Boston plus he teaches at Harvard Medical School and he does bladder cancer research. He is way beyond a normal urologist and does not do the kinds of office visits most folks are used to. He is not an especially accessible person. My guess is he doesn't do the hiring of the staff and leaves that to someone else.
NTT, I thought of another contributing factor for why male urologists don't seem to have a problem with having all-female staffs for such intimate exposures. A large share of the male patients are older guys that grew up in an age where there was little if any consideration of male privacy in schools or in medical settings. On average they are less modest than younger guys and likely less apt to express concerns. Their modesty was bullied and shamed out of them growing up.
I was on the young side for bladder cancer, only 52. When I go for my cystoscopies, I mostly see guys in their 60's to 80's.
Before I retired, where I worked had a locker room for guys that exercised during lunch. We all knew each other and I could see the generational differences. The older guys thought nothing of stripping down, and walking over to the showers, and then back to the lockers without covering themselves. The younger guys always covered themselves so as to not be seen any more than necessary.
Now I belong to a fitness club and it is the same. Older guys do not keep themselves covered, middle aged guys will do the towel wrap routine, and the teens and 20 somethings rarely even take a shower or change in the locker room. They'll arrive with sweatpants over their gym clothes and come in to the locker room just to leave their coat, remove the sweatpants, and maybe change shoes. They go home to shower.
Over time these generational differences will put more pressure on the medical world to change as concerns male privacy. However, as has been noted at various times, the medical world has already changed. More change is needed of course but the situation is vastly improved over what it was when I was growing up. That the old guys at the urology office are treated as respectfully as I have described by the female staff is far more than they ever got when they were young. That isn't enough for the next generation of guys needing cystoscopies however and so the pressure on urology practices will only increase until they move to the next chapter in male privacy.
Morning All:
There needs to be some arm bending by the government to force medical facilities to hire an equal amount of men & women for healthcare related positions.
If not arm bending then we should give them incentives to hire more men.
What really gets me is these so-called "men's clinics".
I went to a men's clinic, I expected ti find that the doctors, nurses, and techs are all male.
Not the case.
As I was leaving I said to one of the doctors, your sign says men's clinic. Why are there so many female doctors nurses, & techs here? Men come here thinking they will be dealing with other men about male related issues not come here & talk to women.
Told them they should remove the men's from the name outside before somebody takes them to task about false advertising.
He didn't answer.
Family members want their guys to take better care of themselves. When they try they run into garbage like these so-called men's clinics.
Nothing ever changes.
If I understand correctly, Medicare bases their payments to providers based partly on customer/patient satisfaction.
Maybe the whole healthcare system needs to to paid that way.
If a male patient can't get male caregivers from a doctors offices or hospitals, maybe it's time they got docked where it hurts the most, financially.
Lose some money because you don't want a patient to feel at ease when they visit then maybe you'll listen to what patients have to say.
How else will they listen to patients?
I've written everyone I can about this issue from local government to Washington officials & nobody seems to want to address the issue.
Regards to all,
NTT
All,
This is how it can be. I had an appointment yesterday with an Orthopedic Surgeon and was pleasantly surprised to be called back to the examining room by a male MA. Prior to my appointed doctor entering the room, I was visited by a PA who was also a male. The doctor (male) arrived shortly thereafter and completed the examination.
The examination was for a knee problem, so I wore shorts to make the exam easier and ease my worries about what would be offered in the way of exam gowns. As it turned out, this office offered exam gowns, shorts and drapes. Wow!
It was obvious to me that both male and female MAs and PAs were available but I would like to believe that they were sensitive to my needs and modesty as a male. Of course, it could have just been coincidence but I am hopeful that this will be the norm on future visits.
Overall, a very good experience and as a side note, my blood pressure seemed to respond accordingly.
Ed T.
Hi Ed:
That doctor is the exception not the norm right now.
All we can hope is one day these people see the light before too many more men needlessly die from lack of needed healthcare.
Take care.
Regards,
NTT
Regarding the nurse in NY who took a cell phone pic of her male patient's genitals. In that state what she committed
amounts to a class e felony which could result in 1-4 years in prison. I do not understand how she did not get sentenced
to prison time. In a plea deal her nursing license was revoked, big deal.
Is this just more of a double standard typical of female teachers having sex with their male students with a slap on the
wrist. At some point she could reapply for her nursing license and be reinstated. She received no jail time therefore
has no record or will have no record of being a convicted felon. I believe what is in order at the least would be a letter
to the prosecutor and how she evaded jail time.
PT
PT
Guys have been getting the short end of the stick for years and as long as prosecutors have it in their minds that when a female teacher has sex with a male student the student is actually having the time of his life, women will continue to just get a slap on the hand. It’s disgusting.
That woman in NY deserved prison time and in my opinion that clueless prosecutor should lose his/her job for not doing their job correctly.
Read a story today about how back in 2008 an LPN violated HIPPA rules for personal gain. She admitted it court made a deal with the prosecutor & got probation with community service instead of 10 years in prison.
Law enforcement and the legal system just don’t think violating a man’s privacy & dignity is really worth any prison time. They feel the guy in most situations had a great time.
Women live a charmed life when it comes to this. If it were a guy they’d throw him in prison no questions asked.
Every time a nurse sees fit to take a picture of his/her patients private areas or even just goes and talks about it to other staff members he/she is in violation of The Nurses Code of Ethics sections 3.1 Privacy and 3.2 Confidentiality. The person(s) he/she talks to about what she heard and/or saw is also in violation of the same clauses unless they turn her in like the NY people did.
These people should be fired and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. NO probation and/or community service.
The system needs changing. Patient’s privacy and dignity matter whether the patient be female or male.
Until law enforcement and the legal system start taking these egregious violations seriously and give prison time, I feel the healthcare industry won't recognize that what’s in place doesn’t work.
Until then, nothing will change and men will be ignored and made to feel as those nobody cares about their feelings and issues.
Take care.
Regards to All,
NTT
The problem is that the nursing (or what ever profession) code of ethics, medical guidelines, patient rights and responsibilities, etc. mean absolutely NOTHING!
They are nothing more than wishful thinking that the profession can present to the public and play semantics with, saying "we CAN’T do that…" AND "you MUST do that" (with the patient rights and responsibilities).
In fact, these are NOT binding and have no consequences if not followed. In EVERY situation, they can be over ridden by a physician saying "this is what I thought right for my patient" OR "I thought it warranted being an emergency."
Look at chaperone policies:
From the American Academy of Pediatrics: Use of Chaperones During the Physical Examination of the Pediatric Patient
RECOMMENDATIONS...
If the patient is an adolescent or young adult and the examination requires inspection or palpation of anorectal or genital areas and/or the female breast, a chaperone is recommended. However, the use of a chaperone should be a shared decision between the patient and physician.
If a medical chaperone is indicated and the patient refuses, the patient or parent should be given alternatives, including seeking care elsewhere.
Pediatricians should develop policy about the use of chaperones in the office or clinic setting and docu- ment in the medical record if they are unable to adhere to the policy or state medical board regulations.
From BlueCross BlueShield of Tennessee:
The Importance of Chaperones during physical examinations
...The preferred type of chaperone "Whenever possible, authorized health professionals should serve as chaperones rather than office clerks or family members...
…This policy should be communicated to patients, either by means of a prominent notice or preferably through a conversation initiated by the intake nurse of the physician.
...An authorized health professional should serve as a chaperone whenever possible.
Physicians should establish clear rules in their practices about respecting patient privacy
and confidentiality to which all chaperones must adhere.
If a chaperone is to be provided, a separate opportunity for private conversation between
the patient and the physician should also be arranged. The physician should keep inquiries and history taking, especially those of a sensitive nature, to a minimum during the course of the chaperoned examination.
Look at birth control in Time Magazine’s Are Doctors’ Exams a Barrier to Birth Control?
Physicians usually require an annual pelvic exam before prescribing oral birth control to women, but the two practices have no medical reason to be linked.
This one shows creativity:
Dr. Dix P. Poppas of the New York-Presbyterian Hospital and Weill Cornell Medical Center of Cornell University (WCMC), used a vibratory devices to collect data on post-operative clitoral sensitivity on the genitals of girls and young women ages 5 to 24 years old.
The rights of the patient MUST be ABSOLUTE! There needs to be clear rules with mandatory disciplinary actions. Physicians realize that they do not lose their medical licenses despite being a convicted sex offender. Reference: Hundreds of doctors, counselors, others allowed to keep practicing despite their sexual misconduct. TLicense to Harm
— Banterings
NTT, without a doubt a double standard still exists. Us older guys are part of the problem I suppose because we've been so grateful to have come to an age where female medical staff finally treat us in a respectful manner with no gratuitous nudity that we haven't made waves. We remember the old days when boys and men had no expectation to privacy in school or medical settings.
I'm 63. My 1st encounters (that I remember) with intimate care of me by female medical staff were at age 11. That year I was hospitalized for a few days and despite having been an early bloomer (meaning my body was more akin to a 13 year old) I was on display with no coverings whatsoever for any and all passing my room or coming into my room to see while a nurse bathed me. That same year I also got to have a school physical where the boys were lined up in a hallway wearing just their tighty whities waiting for our turn to have a physical. School officials didn't care if the girls giggled as they walked past us. They didn't care that when we made it into the nurse's office that the half glass wall separating that space from the main office and the interior door from the nurse's office to the main office was open having us in full view of anyone coming or going from the main office of us boys with our underpants down by our knees. Of course the nurse and the clerk recording things were both female. This was not how the girl's physicals were done. 6th grade was also the start of mandatory group showers after gym class. Not so for the girls.
Come age 18 and during freshmen orientation at college the guys were ordered to strip, shower, and stand in a long line waiting our turn for a swimming test in the nude. Those like me who failed then had to take a swimming class in the nude. Girls never even had to take a swimming test.
Fast forward to age 30 when I'm having a vasectomy and the female nurse doesn't drape me at all and before the doctor came in felt free to comment on my anatomy.
I only went to male doctors and so didn't have any intimate care by females again until age 52. From then until now, with the exception of an operating room nurse making a very inappropriate comment before I was knocked out, the dozens of intimate care events (mostly catheterizations) have been done with minimum exposure by female nurses that were total professionals. My guess is that many guys my age or older similarly feel grateful for this shift towards professionalism amongst female medical staff even if we know the double standard still exists.
The medical community seems to be fine with the status quo of men rarely being able to get male medical staff when it is time for intimate care. I really don't know how to change that. I have read through a number of threads on the allnurses.com site and while some female nurses are aware of the issue and are sympathetic, others don't really even see that there is an issue. I do agree that change will likely only come from lawsuits and court proceedings.
As an aside, I had just read yesterday a thread at allnurses about privacy and chaperones. There was a female NP who does school sports physicals including testicular exams. For her protection she always has a chaperone (almost always female) plus she asks the parent to stay in the room (which is usually going to be Mom). Her focus was on protecting herself and she didn't seem to see it as a problem that a teenage boy is having a testicular exam by a female NP with a female chaperone and Mom present. Her comment was that the boy could go to his own doctor instead if he didn't want this 3 females in the room approach. That is not an option for every boy. This is why the double standard will never be fixed from within the medical community.
Banterings, I wonder who BCBS of TN considers to be an authorized health professional. The LNA (Licensed Nursing Asst) here in VT that has 75 hours of LNA schooling and 30 hours working under the supervision of an RN? A high school diploma is not required. Or the Medical Asst. who here in VT only needs someone willing to call her an MA (most do have some formal training however). I can imagine a private practice electing to call the receptionist an MA so that they could use her for chaperone duties. Personally I do not consider anyone a health professional with less than a 4 year degree in their field and having been licensed. My guess is that BCBS of TN considers anyone a health professional that works in any kind of medical setting.
Does the title of this blog remain modesty concerns when you have a female nurse committing a felony by taking a cell phone pic of her unconscious male patient's genitals or should we have a blog called the horrendously stupid felonious behavior of nurses masquerading
as professionals.
PT
PT, you may have a point, but without every patient's intrinsic modesty and dignity then how would you define the "felony" of those nurses behavior and acts? It is this patient modesty and personal dignity which makes this nurse's (either male or female) truly that "feloneous behavior" for which behavior requires punishment. Think.. without a sense of physical modesty and without setting principles of self-dignity, taking those pictures by others would not only be acceptable but perhaps even wanted and admired by those unconventional patients. So, I think the topic title of this thread is perfectly consistent with the current discussion. ..Maurice.
PT:
I sent an email to a reporter who was covering the case asking for the name of the prosecutor in the case.
I asked if he knew why, with irrefutable evidence in their hands that the nurse in question was let off with a slap on the hand rather than put in prison where she belongs.
I also asked what's to stop her from picking up camera and all & starting up all over again somewhere else with unsuspecting new victims?
We all here know there's a serious problem in the industry.
I talk to people, I write to people but I see absolutely NO movement on resolving this issue.
My question to everyone is simple.
How, when nobody will listen to us are WE going to bring this problem out of the closet & get it on the front burner so it can be dealt with by everyone involved in an appropriate manner?
Thanks for listening,
Regards,
NTT
Hi:
Reporter gave me email address of prosecutor ofc.
Emailed asking why, with irrefutable evidence in hand, did their office not prosecute this nurse to the full extent of the law.
Told them they choked when thqy had the chance to send a message.
They made fools of the two patients involved & they sent a message to all other nurses its okay to take pics. Worse that will happen is loss of license & community service.
Regards,
NTT
Here's something that we can do. We can keep an eye out for current articles/discussions about the use of scribes, chaperones, and medical assistants and submit comments about patient intimate privacy concerns, specifically male privacy given women seem to be generally accommodated already. Responses should be polite but direct. I spent some time looking at random articles about scribes and there is virtually no mention of patient intimate privacy ever. The articles all focus on doctor efficiency and increased income and the ensuing comments are more of the same. It is as if the patient doesn't exist.
Maurice, I don't get to make the rules nor define them. That is the responsibility of the state boards of nursing and as you
know I expect them to follow the rules. Our society sets those rules, not the select few. As we have seen the considerable
collateral damage resulting in countless souls deeply set in acquiring their fetish fantasy, not my problem. There are no
outliers, only victims.
PT
I had to go to the local hospital today for a minor test. In the registration process while she was entering data I noted that I was going to stop by the endoscopy dept to get the forms I'll be asked to sign later this month when I go for a colonoscopy. I said nurses often discourage reading them because they're trying to stay on schedule but I wanted to see what it was I was agreeing to. She agreed it was a good idea to read them and said the endoscopy folks would be giving me the identical form I'm being asked to sign today, and so just take my time now to read it.
The only thing that jumped out at me was giving permission for "medical students" to be present when I am being treated. I told her that can be a very expansive term and asked what do they mean by medical students. She said usually it means nursing students from a nearby college but that they'll inform me when I go for the colonoscopy if they have any students who want to be present. She said I can say no and they won't bring them in. I told her it makes a difference as to exactly where they are in the education process and also whether they are male or female being I'll be the only naked one in the room.
She understood completely and told me about how when she was in labor in the delivery room at another hospital about an hour from here that a bunch of students showed up and she was so startled she didn't say anything. Nobody introduced them, asked her if it was OK for them to be there, or told her exactly what level students they were. The way she said it, I know she'll never allow that to happen to her again.
We'll see the week after next when I go for the colonoscopy, which I will be fully awake for. No versed. If there are students I'm thinking maybe I'll make it a teaching moment. I know they'd only be there to observe but I'm thinking I'll ask them how it is they propose to not have me needlessly on display, the doctor only needs access to my backside and so my front side doesn't need to be exposed. Give me a good answer and they can observe the procedure, be they male or female. My guess is that they'll remember the interaction.
I just thought I'd forward this link to everyone. Another female English teacher was
just charged with having sex with one of her 16-year-old students. Lets watch and see if there is a disparity in the sentencing between a male doing this and what happens to her. It seems to me the last few female teachers that were caught having sex with there under age male students were given a slap on the wrist, probation, no loss of license etc. A male teacher having sex with an underage female student would be fired, lose his license to teach forever and put in jail for many years. This double standard where females are looked at as angles of mercy and would never do harm to a male is getting old. Our hospital's with a majority of female nurses bring this to mind when they don't offer males “same gender intimate care.” There is a simple solution, HIRE MORE MALE NURSES TECHNICIANS & RADIOLOGISTS. If it means laying off female nurses to provide intimate care for men, so be it. As these 30-year nurses, technicians & radiologists start retiring replace them with men until the gender mix is more favorable to men rather than just say “sorry we can’t accommodate you because there are no men.” I think PT has pointed out in some of his previous documents of how its overwhelmingly the Female guards that sexually abuse the male inmates according to Justice department records, does anyone care? I guess not were just men who cares if we get treated with respect, let us die seven years earlier then females because we won’t get the care we need. Feminists have everyone believing its only men that are abusers, rapists criminals etc. in America. Time to recognize female’s can be voyeurs, rapists, and outright criminals, they are not actually above this people just like the female nurse taking pictures of her comatose naked patient. I have completely lost my trust in female nurses & refuse to seek any kind of care unless they can guarantee same gender intimate care like they provide female’s everyday.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3538455/English-teacher-28-sex-16-year-old-student-15-times-planning-wedding-including-one-tryst-motel-night-husband-s-bachelor-party.html
I'm not sure my first post went through, I didn't see the "I'm not a Robot" before I hit publish so here it is again just in case.
I just thought I'd forward this link to everyone. Another female English teacher was
just charged with having sex with one of her 16-year-old students. Lets watch and see if there is a disparity in the sentencing between a male doing this and what happens to her. It seems to me the last few female teachers that were caught having sex with there under age male students were given a slap on the wrist, probation, no loss of license etc. A male teacher having sex with an underage female student would be fired, lose his license to teach forever and put in jail for many years. This double standard where females are looked at as angles of mercy and would never do harm to a male is getting old. Our hospital's with a majority of female nurses bring this to mind when they don't offer males “same gender intimate care.” There is a simple solution, HIRE MORE MALE NURSES TECHNICIANS & RADIOLOGISTS. If it means laying off female nurses to provide intimate care for men, so be it. As these 30-year nurses, technicians & radiologists start retiring replace them with men until the gender mix is more favorable to men rather than just say “sorry we can’t accommodate you because there are no men.” I think PT has pointed out in some of his previous documents of how its overwhelmingly the Female guards that sexually abuse the male inmates according to Justice department records, does anyone care? I guess not were just men who cares if we get treated with respect, let us die seven years earlier then females because we won’t get the care we need. Feminists have everyone believing its only men that are abusers, rapists criminals etc. in America. Time to recognize female’s can be voyeurs, rapists, and outright criminals, they are not actually above this people just like the female nurse taking pictures of her comatose naked patient. I have completely lost my trust in female nurses & refuse to seek any kind of care unless they can guarantee same gender intimate care like they provide female’s everyday.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3538455/English-teacher-28-sex-16-year-old-student-15-times-planning-wedding-including-one-tryst-motel-night-husband-s-bachelor-party.html
Hi Biker:
Let us know how it works out.
I gave up trying to get the colonoscopy. Settling for In-Home FIT test. Facilities refuse to work with me. It's their way or no way. They won't give me an all-male team or allow me to wear a pair of boxers backwards even if I push the appointment out a month to give them time to put the team together.
You're a special breed Biker allowing students around. I wouldn't do it.
Regards,
NTT
To Biker and NTT.
Did you call numerous clinics and in other cities ? Several years ago my wife called numerous clinics to check if they had male techs. Most gave you the standard answer of what's the difference. We are all professionals . One even said no, but said in a snotty baby voice , " tell him we will cover him real good." But two said yes , and that a all male staff could be arranged with prior notice. The rest i just wrote off my list.
What the medical community doesn't realize is , you are the paying customer. If you don't come in , they don't get paid. If they won't listen to your concerns , go someplace else that will. Maybe one day when they turn off the lights and lock the doors for the last time they will get the message. Not. We also called several urology clinics to get their scoop. Out of the 12 to 15 clinics that we called , two had male techs. Can you guess which clinics we would use ? Good luck to all and keep pushing for change. Why they resist so hard is beyond me. Take care........AL
NTT, I'm not special at all, just at a different place on the male modesty continuum is all. I grew up in the 50's to 70's where guys were not given any consideration in school or medical settings. Continuing into my 20's and 30's I got more of the same. By time I got to the current era much of my modesty had been bullied and shamed out of me. Somewhere along the way the nursing world cleaned up their act and began treating their male patients with respect most of the time. My expectation is that I will always be treated respectfully with my exposure being limited to that which is necessary.
On the student issue, I know that observing is an important part of their learning and so long as I am the one giving an OK for them to be there and the deal limits my exposure to what is minimally necessary I will likely say OK. If they get to do their learning by observing less modest guys like me maybe they'll leave the more modest guys alone.
I wanted to let everyone know that you can get a free sample colonoscopy short from this company, Prime Pacific Health Innovations.
I totally agree with Al’s approach. You have to seek for a practice or a facility willing to accommodate your wishes for modesty even if it means driving farther. You have to be persistent and keep on calling different practices until you find the one that can honor your wishes for an all male team.
I wanted to let you all know about some good insights a man, Mark made on another web site. He refused to have treatment for a male health issue until they were able to find a male technician. In fact, his doctor spoke up about patient modesty concerns at a meeting. We have to speak up for medical facilities to become more patient modesty friendly. Compliant patients do not change things.
Misty
LeftEddie
Always a pleasure. I've read many of your posts elsewhere. I read that article and I'll tell you female teachers having trysts
with their male students does not surprise me anymore. What I am tired of is the continual year after year recognition, that
nursing is the most trusted profession. I'm not sure where they get the votes. If only they could spend some time looking
at the state nursing board's rn, lpn and cna disciplinary boards. I'd assure you they would probably have a more different
perspective along with the articles about nurses taking pics of their patients genitals and the hipaa violations would put
that industry in a different light. I don't believe teachers are the most trusted profession but my thoughts are that for a while
the most trusted profession should be no one in the medical industry.
PT
Misty, that link to the post by Mark was excellent. I had never seen the suggestion to wear a jockstrap during a colonoscopy, though I suspect most doctors would still say no. To me it seems like it would be a reasonable accommodation that could be made. You are right that compliant patients don't change things and on that count I am guilty. For me the first battle so to speak is demanding that I be treated in a respectful manner with minimal exposure, though as noted in prior posts I do have my line in the sand that will never be crossed (shaving the genital area or bathing me). That and I only go to male doctors and I expect to give permission or not for any extraneous people in the room (students, chaperones, scribes).
Al, congratulations on your perseverance seeking all male care. In rural areas that could mean driving substantial distances but just going through the process of making the requests with local providers likely plants a seed that may someday germinate. With my upcoming colonoscopy, if the local doctor didn't agree to do it without sedation, my alternative was 2 hours away. For any specialty locally there is pretty much only one choice, if the specialty is here at all. I am losing my health insurance June 30th and will be forced onto Obamacare. That will preclude me from seeing my urologic oncologist in Boston as the Vermont plans do not cover anything in Boston. My search thus far is indicating only one place in VT where I can find a urologic oncologist (2 hours from here) or going to Dartmouth Hitchcock in NH (also 2 hours from here). Trying to find one that would also provide male nurses for the cystoscopy catheterizations is a pipe dream in my case.
Any industry or institution once established fights to maintain the status quo because the status quo is beneficial to the incumbents. Most maintain the status quo via lobbyists, campaign contributions, unions, and such. The medical industry does this for sure. At the same time it is advantageous for the women who dominate healthcare at the nursing and tech levels to maintain that dominance. It ensures them of being able to have female caregivers for themselves should they so choose. For some there are other benefits. I have seen posts by what I take to be hard core feminists that are indignant some men don't want to expose themselves to them. They take it as men disrespecting their professionalism and dismiss male modesty as a valid issue. I have seen posts by young immature nurses that seem to occasionally enjoy the view. Al, my guess is that it is this protecting the status quo that is behind the snotty comment you got about covering you up. The request for male caregivers was taken as a threat.
Good Morning:
Gallup did a telephone survey of 805 adults and gauged respondents' attitudes toward a number of popular professions. That's where the nurses got there most trusted status.
However, as long as the underbelly of the profession is allowed to flourish because the good people in the profession won't step up and advocate for their patients because they themselves are afraid of losing their jobs, nothing will change and patients will continue to pay the price.
Misty, FYI, I ordered a sample pair of those shorts you spoke about then proceeded to try to setup an appointment for a colonoscopy.
Not one place would allow me to take the test using the shorts, nor would they guarantee me a same gender team for the test, or use a pair of boxer shorts backwards. It wasn't facility policy.
I reported back to my pcp who has been bugging me to get tested that due to the complete inflexibility of the medical profession I will no longer pursue getting a colonoscopy so stop asking. I've settled on the in-home FIT test like may others have done.
Until we the people cry out loud enough and long enough to be heard that we want change, The criminal justice system won't start treating these people as criminals & putting them in prison & the healthcare system won't move on hiring an equal number of men & women for positions whereby giving them the ability to give people same gender care when asked.
Regards to all,
NTT
NTT, would your PCP be willing to intercede on your behalf by calling to ask for an accommodation for you? Maybe professional courtesy amongst physicians might do it.
I wish there was a way to get the men who hide behind a macho "I don't need to go to the doctor" stance to come out from the shadows. I'm thinking we all know at least several. Just this past week in a brief discussion that referenced a doctor's appt, someone I know said he never goes to the doctor because he doesn't want to know if anything is wrong. He's mid-50's, short and very round. It is highly unlikely he doesn't have a weight-driven health issue of some sort at his age and he must know that. I thought to myself maybe the real reason he won't go to the doctor is a body image issue. I had an uncle who died of colon cancer who never went to the doctor until about 3 months before he died. He was already terminal at that point. Surely he knew something was wrong long before then but why didn't he go to the doctor? Another uncle had a mild heart attack at 57, recovered, went back to work, then had a permanently disabling stroke at 58. At the time I thought did he not get a thorough physical after the heart attack to determine the overall state of his health? Maybe modesty wasn't an issue with my uncles. Maybe it was but I am thinking these won't go to the doctor guys that do have modesty issues are hiding in plain sight all around us.
My guess is that if a group of doctors opened a true men's clinic with only male employees that they would do a huge business if they offered primary care, colonoscopy and urology services.
NTT
You are correct regarding Gallup as I learned about this company recently. It looks like I will be having some
correspondence with the upper management of this company very soon.
PT
NTT,
I am very disappointed about the response you got about colonoscopy shorts. Did they explain why you could not use colonoscopy shorts or boxer shorts backwards? What state are you from? I helped a male patient in New York take steps to ensure he had an all-male team and colonoscopy shorts. He had a very good experience.
I did not know about colonoscopy shorts until I did some research a few years ago and found that an endoscopy clinic in Knoxville, TN encouraged patients to wear boxer shorts backwards for colonoscopy if they were concerned about their modesty.
Biker in Vermont,
There are actually a few all-male clinics in the United States. Check out the directory on MPM’s web site at http://patientmodesty.org/maleclinicdirectory.aspx. I encourage you to especially look under Texas and San Antonio. Sadly, this all-male clinic directory is very small compared to the all-female ob/gyn directory.
Misty
Thanks Misty, it is encouraging that there are a few men's health centers. Most seem to have a narrow sexual health focus but it is a start I suppose. The entire State of Vermont only has 626,000 people and no cities of any size and so it isn't likely anything is coming here anytime soon. At the moment it looks like the only place I can find a urologic oncologist in my soon to be Obamacare world is at Dartmouth Hitchcock across the border in NH. Fortunately it is a world class facility but not having been a patient there yet I am unfamiliar with the male-female options beyond the doctors. Next week I'll know more about my small local hospital when I go for my colonoscopy. Other than an xray last week I have never been there. As noted previously, there was only one practice locally that does colonoscopies with the alternative being a 2 hour drive to D-H in NH if the local docs didn't agree to do it without sedation. In rural areas there can be little choice in providers let alone finding providers with male nursing or tech staff.
A question here for the guys that refuse to have intimate care or exposure to female healthcare providers. I ask because it does affect my level of self awareness and comfort. Does it make a difference if the doctor/nurse/tech is young and attractive versus being older and average looking? I've never had a female doctor for an intimate exam or procedure but with nursing & tech staff I have been much more comfortable with older women. I feel like they are more mature and less judgmental. It isn't necessarily true but it does make me feel more comfortable. The physical privacy violations we read about typically involve young nurses/techs.
If modest men are more comfortable with older staff, then assigning older staff is an easy accommodation to make. This could especially make a huge difference for teenage boys being subjected to sports physicals or otherwise finding themselves in an ER or hospital setting.
Following my comment in my last post about judgmental, I wanted to note that men and women have allowed the media to make them self conscious about their bodies. Women have suffered from that far longer than men I think and we see the results in the extent of teenagers with eating disorders. The constant media message that they'd be happy and popular if only they were thinner and prettier takes a toll.
Somewhere along the way mass media started sending the message to guys that they needed to have the bodies of pro athletes and somehow many guys came to believe that "average" endowment is far larger than what average is in real life. The result is poor body image and fear of being judged, including by female medical staff. What can be done about this I don't know but it is part of the medical modesty issue. This isn't the fault of the medical community but it is a contributing factor to the modesty issues that the medical community doesn't want to recognize.
Good Afternoon Everyone:
Biker you asked “would your PCP be willing to intercede on your behalf by calling to ask for an accommodation for you? Maybe professional courtesy amongst physicians might do it.”
My PCP recommended/pushed a female gastroenterologist saying she was extremely good at doing colonoscopies & taking care of her patients. I kept saying female is out of the question. Kept asking me just to go talk to her so I did.
I brought up modesty issues and how I wanted to do it.
She comes back “don’t be silly, my staff of ladies and I have seen it all before. We’ll take good care of you”
That’s all I needed to hear.
I let her ramble on a bit more then to get out of there I told her I’d make an appointment at the front desk.
Needless to say I left & they never heard from me again.
I’m tired of all this medical foolishness so I had the PCP order me the in-home FIT test. That will suffice for the PCP as I was told it's better than no test at all.
Biker if a group of doctors opened a true men's clinic like the women have all over the country now, it would be a gold mine for them.
There are a lot of so-called “men’s clinics” out there but when you look close, they employ a lot of women in non-secretarial positions.
The medical establishment is so entrenched in their old stuffy ways that colonoscopy shorts for all patients or boxers backwards for men will never go mainstream unless there is a change within the regulatory agencies that oversee the healthcare industry.
Biker you asked
“Does it make a difference if the doctor/nurse/tech is young and attractive versus being older and average looking? I've never had a female doctor for an intimate exam or procedure but with nursing & tech staff I have been much more comfortable with older women. I feel like they are more mature and less judgmental. It isn't necessarily true but it does make me feel more comfortable.”
Between 12 & 21 yrs. old I think they’d be more comfortable with a male. At this age, they might be self-conscious about sprouting wood in front of a young woman. 22 to 30 yrs. old they’re feeling their oats & want to show off what they have at this age so young nurses/doctors/techs will work here.
Over 30 they’ve got over their oats and are more mature now. They might not feel comfortable being exposed in front of a younger woman. Especially if they are married. Over 30 they’d probably feel more comfortable with someone their age or older if it’s a female.
Personally I won’t have any dealings with female hospital personnel. Don’t trust them at all.
Finally, there are a lot of “macho” guys out their living in plain sight of you and me who like many of us have modesty issues.
Until these gentlemen come out of the closet, the medical community will never really know how far reaching this issue goes so they won’t change their ways and fix it for all of us.
If you have modesty issues for whatever reason, if you want same gender care when you go to the doctor or hospital, it’s time for you to SPEAK UP!
In this case guys, silence isn’t golden. Silence is a killer.
Regards to all,
NTT
NTT, the gastroenterologist who said “don’t be silly, my staff of ladies and I have seen it all before. We’ll take good care of you” will likely never get it as concerns male modesty. She may be talented at a technical level but she doesn't understand men. That your PCP sent you to her says he doesn't really grasp the concept of modesty either. Probably time for a new PCP.
If any gastroenterologist reads this thread, can you please explain what the big deal is with letting patients wear colonoscopy shorts? It seems like such a small accommodation to make.
And yes, silence can be a killer. As noted earlier I wonder if this is why my uncles didn't seek medical care when they clearly had issues. Is it why the mid-50's short and round friend I referenced won't go to the doctor?
Biker in Vermont,
Some states are not very patient modesty friendly and I suspect Vermont is probably one of the worst states for patient modesty especially for men because there are no major cities here. You could easily get an all-male team in New York City. The male colonoscopy patient had his colonoscopy in NY and they were very sensitive to his wishes for an all-male team and colonoscopy shorts.
As for sports physicals for teenagers, have you read the sports physicals article on MPM’s web site? Hernia and genital exams are actually not necessary for boys with no symptoms. They can easily do self hernia exams and if they have problems, they can see a doctor. Yes, many teenage boys are very upset at the thought of female doctor or nurse examining their private parts.
Misty
Misty, on allnurses.com there was a comment from a female NP who does sports physicals at two facilities. She always has a chaperone present for her protection. One facility doesn't have any male employees and so that chaperone is always a female. She also wants the parent to stay for the exam,and in most cases that is going to be Mom. The NP doesn't see a problem with this. Going into the exam the boy likely doesn't know he is going to have this intimate exam by a woman and with another woman and Mom there to witness it. I'd of died a thousand deaths back then if it were me.
I hadn't thought about it until you said it but Vermont maybe is a tougher spot for male modesty concerns. In addition to not having any large cities and the choices that come with population density, the culture is such that public nudity is legal virtually everywhere. Lewd behavior will get you arrested but just being nude won't. Don't get the wrong idea. Mostly it is at summer swimming holes and on private property. Lots of old hippies living up here. There is a nude bike ride event in downtown Burlington each year (our largest city at 42,000 people). A few years back there was a lively discussion about this when a group of teenagers (male & female) began hanging out in the nude in a downtown area. They weren't causing any trouble and the general consensus was that it was OK. I suppose this cultural background could potentially add to female medical staff not being overly concerned about male modesty.
Good Afternoon:
It's bad enough they allow women to do sports physicals on teenage males. It should be banned I don't care what the women over at Allnurses say.
But to put the young man's mother & another female in the room as a chaperone for the sake of the caregiver that is abuse. They're gonna scar that kid for life.
If a female in the medical profession knows ahead of time they will be dealing with male patients & they have to or are required to have their babysitter aka chaperone tag along, then they should be doing EVERYTHING in their power to get themselves a male babysitter while dealing with male patients or cancel the appointment until such time as they have a male available or do NOT see male patients at all.
These women are throwing every male's respect, dignity, & modesty right in the toilet. If somebody did it to them, they'd be singing holy h*ll.
This is plain and simple abuse of medical power.
My PCP notified me in writing today he is retiring as of the end of the month.
As of the end of the month I officially retire from using the healthcare system while it's in its current state.
I just hope for all concerned that somehow someone with authority over medical institutions hears about some of the things going on in their backyard then has the guts to take a stand against it before it's too late.
We have yet another female teacher being arrested for a tryst with a student.
A North Carolina teacher is accused of traveling to a Herndon, Virginia, hotel to sexually assault a 13-year-old boy she met while she was a student teacher there, according to police.
I bet he just would have had the time of his life as a prosecutor would think.
Kathleen Antonina Capitano, 24, was arrested by Fairfax County Police and the FBI on Saturday and charged with four felony counts of use of communications systems to facilitate certain offenses involving children under 15 years of age, police said in a press release.
She Had a ‘Physical Relationship’ With the Student While She Was Teaching in Virginia & Then Exposed Herself to Him Online, Police Say.
Let see if the criminal justice system gets it right this time & puts her away if proven guilty of the charges.
Regards to all,
NTT
To show another side of the doctor-patient relationship, here is a posting which was written to and which was published today on my long standing thread "I Love My Doctor and Here is the Reason Why" by "Confused".
..Maurice
Dr. Bernstein, I too have romantic feelings for my male doctor, a ob/gyn. I am female, educated (lawyer), and do not understand why I have developed such irrational feelings towards my doctor. I say irrational because I certainly understand the ethical issues prohibiting a patient-doctor relationship and the fact that he is also married. I had 6 visits with him and surgery. I immediately felt a physical attraction on the first visit and think he found me attractive and at times I felt he reciprocated my subtle flirting. He was extremely personable, such as telling me he was my age, that his wife was Latin as is I, sharing his recent surgical experience with me, and put his hand on my knee/ thigh area during two appts (not during any exam and both times I was wearing a dress with stockings). However I got mixed signals from him at times - one minute he would have a chaporone present when checking my pelvic incision but the next times he wouldn't. He never acted inappropriately or unprofessionally. I am sure doctors, like most humans, enjoy when they sense someone finds them attractive, particularly a young doctor, so maybe he was just stroking his ego (for a lack of better description). Do you think he sensed my feelings? After my last post-op appt, I left feeling so sad and actually cried on the way home. I honestly haven't had feelings like this for anyone in years. Do you think this is transference (although I don't think I meet the definition) or normal when one goes through an emotional medical journey including surgery, or am I just loosing it? I have always been such a rational person until this!
NTT, I'm sorry you are losing your PCP who I am guessing you trusted. It doesn't have to mean you forego medical care going forward. Not getting routine physicals and such could eventually result with you in an emergency room instead.
A couple years ago I had to find a new PCP and I am really glad. What triggered it was my former PCP leaving the hospital-owned practice I had been going to and me deciding that had happened too many times over the years. Now I am with a guy in practice for himself and I have a great rapport with him. He does not have a nurse or medical assistant and so it is always just the two of us in the room. Your soon to be former PCP is clearly an older guy if he is retiring. Retirement age guys grew up in a different world as concerns male modesty. You may find a younger doctor better understands your concerns. Don't give up on the medical profession just yet. There are a lot of good people out there.
From Maurice & the post he repsoted- "To show another side of the doctor-patient relationship, here is a posting which was written to and which was published today on my long standing thread
However I got mixed signals from him at times - one minute he would have a chaporone present when checking my pelvic incision but the next times he wouldn't. "
Hope you told "confused" that either a chaperone is required or it isn't... if it is, then the doc was breaking the rules without one... if the doc is allowed to go without one, then he was violating her privacy by having one without her consent.
That's what I got from your post anyhoo...
Jason K
Jason, why don't you go to the thread and write your questions or view regarding this lady visitor's posting. I suspect she is waiting for a comment either from me or a visitor to that thread. ..Maurice.
I am new to this blog. I started researching privacy/modesty issues after being diagnosed with a condition that at some point will require surgery and learning that a foley catheter is likely to be part of the procedure. I researched each procedure related to the surgery, including foley catheters, and started realizing an interesting aspect to medical/nursing training videos. Any training videos that demonstrate intimate care on male patient simulators were performed by female nurses. However, any training videos that included intimate care for LIVE patients, whether male or female, were performed by same gender nurses (male nurses for male patients; female nurses for female patients). Despite the insistence by the nursing profession that gender is never a consideration for "professionals," the videos indicate otherwise. The question remains, why deny this reality to patients (and males patients in particular)?
When I raised this issue with family members who are registered nurses, the blowback was intense. ("we are professionals," "you can't allow a patient to choose their care givers," "refusing care from a female nurse is the same as racial discrimination," "patient gender is never a consideration for nurses," etc.)
Yet, the heated conversations devolved into a discussion about "perverted" male patients who request female nursing care and the management techniques employed by nurses confronted with sexually inappropriate patients and other obvious gender-based boundary issues.
It seems the prevailing position of the nursing profession is that gender is NEVER an issue in the patient-nurse relationship. That is, unless the NURSE finds HERSELF in what is for HER an uncomfortable position with a male patient.
JD
My wife had a major surgery yesterday at a large teaching hospital. This is to share some observations.
All of the pre-op nursing staff were women. Most of the folks that were going to be in the operating room came by to introduce themselves, ask questions, and answer questions. The 3 docs were men (colorectal surgeon, urologist, anesthesiologist) as were the Residents working with them. The colorectal surgeon also had a female medical student with him. The Nurse Anesthetist and Operating Room nurses were women. My wife noted there was at least one other male nursing type person in the operating room. She didn't see anybody else before they put her under.
Last week she had received the hospital's consent forms so I was surprised when the anesthesiologist gave her a form to sign. I asked him why is she getting this now when she's about to go into surgery. He said he needs to first make sure he has explained everything and that she have had a chance to ask questions before she gives consent. He said neither the colorectal surgeon or the hospital staff could give as full an explanation as him or answer any question that might be posed as concerns his part of the process. That made sense to me. I hadn't thought about it before. The Urologist then did the same thing.
When I went to the in-patient post-op area I was pleasantly surprised to see at least half the nurses were men. I thought afterwards maybe they concentrate men there given patients just coming out of surgery and still under the effects of anesthesia can't do anything for themselves and some stronger arms may be needed to move patients? All of the patients in post-op, men and women, young and old, were fully covered. I note this because of the stories about men not being kept covered in post-op. I did not observe any needless exposure anywhere yesterday but my observations were very limited of course.
The hospital had run out of rooms and my wife ended up being sent to the pediatric/adolescent unit. Again I was pleasantly surprised to see about half the nurses there were men. I am hoping this is because they recognized the special issues of adolescent boy intimate exposure but I can't know that for sure. My wife's nurse was a male but he was a floater sent there to care for the adult overflow placed in that unit.
The surgery itself was over 6 hours and then she didn't wake up for several hours afterwards so I spent the entire day hanging around outside the surgical area. That allowed me to see many surgical staff leaving at the end of their workdays. Though on-duty staff wear photo ID's that include in bold letters their status (MD, RN, LNA etc), the departing surgical staff didn't have their ID's on and so I couldn't know their status but I can say that there were an many men than women, if not more.
I don't know if my wife will be kept in the pediatric/adolescent area or moved to a regular floor. If she is moved I'll observe the male/female mix there. She was admitted at that same hospital for an unplanned overnight 2 months ago and all the staff in her area were women.
JD, gender is very much an issue for nursing staff, just not in the way you'd like. A woman who does not want a man inserting a catheter or bathing her etc just has to say so and female nurses will be assigned. Gender only becomes something patients aren't supposed to be concerned about when the patient is a man. Note that many women are OK with male nurses for intimate care, my wife being one of them. It is just that the women who do care are readily accommodated. Your family member nurses know this is the way it is.
On the catheter issue, I have had it done dozens of times, always by women. If done properly your exposure will be kept to only the penis. As soon as my gown is raised, the nurse covers the genital area over with a special cloth with a hole in the center for the penis. She then covers over my legs too. Believe me that doing it this way does make a difference in that I know she is at least doing what she can to minimize my exposure. There have been a number of nurses over the years and they all have done it the same way. They also tell me what they are going to do each step of the way before they do it. I find that helpful too, though of course I already know the process by heart. If I had a choice I'd have a male nurse, but the urology practice I go to has never had a male nurse in the 11+ years I've been going there.
Good luck.
JD
Imagine the shock on some female nurse's face if she went for a mammogram and the tech was male. But it doesn't happen
since there are no male mammographers. I have never seen half of a post-op surgery consisting of any males let alone
half. Why? There just are not that many male nurses. Finally, the drape with a hole placed over a male is not for your privacy,
it is there to maintain sterility. Once the catheter is placed the drape is removed so what is the point if they cover your legs.
I've never seen anyone do that for any male patient. You have the right to request same gender care despite what anyone
on the thread states.
PT
PT, my several dozen catheterizations have all been either for bladder cancer treatments or the follow-up cystoscopies. The draping always stays in place until the process is 100% done. Then I clean up and get dressed.
I too was surprised to see so many male RN's in the post-op area. Hopefully it was not just an odd coincidence.
In my case, there has never been a male nurse at the urology practice in my 11+ years. My right to requests a male nurse isn't going to go very far. Yes I could go elsewhere but I never did because the urologic oncologist I see is amongst the elite in his field. Regretfully next year I will have to go elsewhere because I am losing my insurance soon and Obamacare in VT does not include any coverage at the Boston hospitals. Being there are only two places in my new insurance territory that have urologic oncologists, I'll be switching to Dartmouth Hitchcock in NH and will come to learn whether their urology dept. has any male nurses.
Had my colonoscopy this morning. It was at the local hospital by a group I hadn't been to before. All but one of the docs are male but I otherwise did not see a single male nurse there.
A couple weeks ago I had been told by the hospital admissions person that the consent form was the same one I signed when I had an xray a couple weeks ago. Nope. Before the procedure started I then got a 2nd consent form from the doc after he explained what all was going to happen. Not unlike my wife's experience at a much larger hospital 2 days ago.
I asked the nurse if there were any students or observers today. She said no and asked if that was a concern. I told her I am generally disposed to allowing students but it makes a difference if they are teenage LNA students at the local trade school or Residents from Dartmouth. She laughed and agreed that yes there is a difference. She then told me it would just be her, another nurse, and the doctor, and what her role was and that of the 2nd nurse.
I then asked if staff is allowed to wander in and out during procedures because they have a question or some such. She said no, that they try hard to protect patient privacy and also the doctor doesn't want to be disturbed when he is with a patient. I said from the patient's perspective they are the only naked ones in the room and that it is very disrespectful for anyone to just wander in. She agreed.
I then got a gown and was told to change out of everything except my socks. The curtain was pulled across where the door was but with the door open behind it. After I had plenty of time to change and get onto the table, she calls to me asking if I am all set, and then after getting my response she comes back in. The 2nd nurse also then announces herself before she came into the room. After it was all over, I was left alone to get dressed and again the nurse called to me asking if I was all set before she entered the room.
I was draped with a blanket and my front side was never exposed for even a moment. Only my backside was seen which for me was not a big deal. The entire process was very professional and respectful.
As an aside I was not sedated but I did let them hook me up to an IV just in case something happened and I needed to be put under. I did not have any pain whatsoever. There was a little cramping due to the air being pumped in to inflate the colon, and that all subsequently came out on it's own after the procedure was over. Doing it without sedation was a very good choice, and it was fascinating to watch the full procedure on the screen. Doing it without sedation also allows you to know you are not being needlessly exposed.
Something important for anybody here that refuses to get a colonoscopy due to the inability to get all same gender care, the doctor found and removed 5 polyps, a couple of them rather large. Hopefully they'll prove to be benign. I had an uncle who died before his time due to colon cancer. Now I get to do it again in a year on account of the polyps.
Hello:
Just a suggestion to any new doctors going into private practice.
If you're a female & you plan on treating only female patients in your practice, hire yourself a full female staff if you so choose too. However, if you plan on seeing male patients too, show your male patients you're thinking about them & their privacy & dignity & hire at least one fully qualified male nurse and tech & have them automatically assigned to all male patients unless the patient themselves ask for opposite gender care.
Same thing goes for the guys, if you plan on dealing with only men, hire an all male staff. If you will be dealing with men & women, hire both men & women nurses & techs.
By showing people you have the staff in place ready to take care of both men and women, your practices will thrive.
And one more thing.
More than likely, you'll both have females manning the front receptionist desk.
The are men that just don't like to talk to or in front of women about male related issues. There's no getting around it.
Instruct your staffs if a guy comes in & you ask at the desk, what they're here for & they reply "a male related issue" just tell him fine, please have a seat the doctor will be with you shortly. Don't embarrass the guy cause he doesn't want to blurt out to the entire reception area what's wrong with him.
Yes PT I totally agree with you that every man & woman has the right to ask for and receive same gender care.
Our healthcare system is supposed to be a patient-centered care system so it's not about what the administrators, doctors, & nurses want.
It's supposed to be about what does the medical community need to do to make sure their patients have the best possible outcome from their stay.
If that means giving a patient same gender doctors, nurses, and techs during their stay, then the medical facilities better make sure they have enough staff in place at all times to handle these patient requests.
They're not going to go away.
Ever watch those reality shows Trauma in the ER? They're absolutely horrible at protecting a patients privacy & dignity. Scary.
Take care all,
NTT
The problem is that medical school turns a compassionate caring person into an almost sociopath. By definition that is one devoid of the ability to empathize or feel emotion. I have a lengthy essay on this topic on my blog here:
How to Create a Sociopath
— Banterings
My wife's summary of this week's hospital experience is that she wishes there were more male nurses. She had several provide direct care and she says they were the most attentive and considerate of all the nurses she dealt with. She said some of the women nurses were also great and she really liked them but there were a couple with an attitude. I told her I think what she observed is that the guys are trying extra hard because many women patients reject them and some female nurses are less than supportive of male nurses. I think my wife would elect to just have male nurses in the future if she had the choice.
A question for folks here. Given the reality that odds are intimate care will be provided by female nurses & techs, are guys more comfortable with middle aged and older nurses/techs rather than with younger in intimate care situations? I have come to realize that I am more comfortable with the middle aged/older women healthcare staff. In my mind they are more mature and professional in working with men in intimate care situations. Having been in that situation many times, I realize now that the extent to which I was more apprehensive and/or self conscious in the past is when they were young.
Does this make sense to anyone? Of course being young in their careers does not mean they aren't professionals who will treat you with respect, yet my comfort level increases with their age.
Biker:
To answer your question, I think, an older gentlemen with more life experiences under his belt would probably lean towards an older woman with more experience.
A younger gentleman with less life experiences would probably feel more comfortable with a younger tech/nurse.
Respects,
NTT
NTT, I completely disagree! While there are certainly exceptions, I'm relatively confident most guys, regardless of age, don't want a younger less experienced MA/tech/nurse involved in intimate care. Generally speaking, with age comes experience and thus professionalism. And the real issue few will acknowledge is most guys don't want to be sized up!
Ed
Here is a great paper from the BMJ: Emotional harm from disrespect: the neglected preventable harm
Notice in the section titled "Defining emotional harm in terms of dignity and respect"(note: it does NOT use the word "modesty").
Modesty is a way to blame the patient for asking too much (as in being too modest). There is no negotiating dignity, it is a God given right. Healthcare avoids this term.
We are waking up to this fact: Beth Israel aims to prevent emotional harm to patients.
— Emotional harms may include failing to conduct a sensitive conversation in a suitably private setting; misplacing or losing sentimental objects; or committing "never events" such as sending a funeral home the wrong body after a patient passes away.
— Lead author Lauge Sokol-Hessner, MD, argues emotional harms can erode trust, leave patients feeling violated and damage patient-provider relationships. "Such injuries can be severe and long-lasting, with adverse effects on physical health," said Dr. Sokol-Hessner. "Failure to acknowledge and systematically address these harms ensures that they continue."
— To reduce patient harms, BIDMC made a significant commitment to defining the loss of dignity and respect as a preventable harm and taking active steps to prevent them by convening a multidisciplinary "Respect and Dignity" Workgroup. They defined emotional harm as something that affects a patient's dignity by the failure to demonstrate adequate respect for the patient as a person.
— BIDMC tracks emotional harms using the same databases used to document physical harms.
Now for something completely different:
Does Patient Privacy Trump Hospital Security?
In 2012 Sharp Grossmont Hospital, a sprawling healthcare facility located in La Mesa, a community east of San Diego, installed cameras inside computer monitors attached to anesthesia machines used in three operating rooms at the hospital's Women's Health Center. The goal, according to hospital officials, was to catch a thief. The result, court documents charge, was multiple violations of patients' privacy...
According to those documents, the surveillance captured 6,966 video clips, some depicting "female patients in their most vulnerable state, under anesthesia, exposed, and undergoing medical procedures..."
Admire estimates that during the 12-month surveillance, some 14,000 to 15,000 video clips may have captured images that patients "have an expectation would be private..."
The use of the term "idiot" is appropriate here.
Maurice has encouraged posters here to do more than just post here, to try to make a change. I have done that and within the last year noticed some very specific and unique terms and concepts that I had come up with and written about being included in recent papers.
Cause and effect or coincidence? I don’t know…
Not too long ago I suggested that Maurice change the title of this thread to "Patient Modesty: Volume XX" (modesty vs dignity). I for get the reasons, but I think that they had to do with the thread running for 10 years that he kept the name. (I do not disagree with his choice, I only made a suggestion.)
Now I am beginning to see what use to be called modesty being called dignity (as in the BMJ paper). Again, coincidence?
Why was the paper published in the BJM and NOT an American publication? Seems our system is still in denial about human dignity. But that is changing too.
— Banterings
Age has nothing to do wether someone will treat you professionally or not. In my opinion the older nurses are responsible
for continuing the double sided, double standard that they have been taught to perpetuate. The younger nurses haven't
a clue what has transpired over the last 50 years. What would the thought processes be if an older nurse were confronted
by a younger male mammographer versus a younger nurse being confronted by an older male mammographer. Male
mammographer said don't exist be you get the analogy.
PT
I appreciate PT’s points about age. The truth is many men who are modest do not want any women except for their wives regardless of age to see and touch their private parts. Also, think about wives who do not want their husbands to be examined intimately by another woman regardless of age because they desire to be the only woman to see and touch their husbands’ private parts.
One man on this blog a few years said he would prefer to have an inexperienced male for his intimate procedure than a female nurse with 30 years of experience. No amount of experience or professionalism changes the gender of the nurse.
There are many insensitive older female nurses who think male patient modesty does not care. For example, look at this case of middle aged female CNA whose goal is to be mean to male patients. In fact, some older nursing school female professors are very resistant when you bring up male patient modesty because they believe men should just let go of their modesty.
Many men feel strongly about their modesty deep down inside, but they feel intimidated by the medical industry to speak up. Men need to stand up to the medical industry and demand that their modesty be honored.
Misty
I wanted to mention a discussion we had about professionals on this blog a few years. I encourage you to particularly check out the comments of LKT.
Misty
Misty
Very good comments. Some analogies as to how men are treated in healthcare mirror the way blacks
we're treated in the 60's. Sit in the back of the bus, don't use the bathroom for whites only colored. You
can't eat at the white restaurants and on and on. For me personally, modesty has nothing to do with it
and for that is why I have issues with the naming of this thread. The main issues I have is it is very
discriminatory the way men are treated in regards to privacy. If you like sitting at the back of the bus
only because you are a male, good for you. I hope you like the scenery. You like being told to eat only
at restaurants for colored, hope the food tastes great for you. Use only bathrooms for colored, enjoy
your potty time. You like being treated differently than another gender especially when the other gender
sets rules for all genders in their ethics yet doesn't adhere to them in practice, hope you like that also.
I came into this world as a human being and that's how I intend to leave it.
PT
Morning Everyone:
In the news today. This was sent to me by a friend who is very offended by it.
Shirtless Male Nurse Billboard on I-84 Stirs Reaction.
http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/Topless-Male-Nurse-Billboard-on-I-84-Stirs-Reaction-378739321.html
Just made it harder for guys. My opinion, the article implies that women have a choice & men don't.
I asked if men would get equal time next month on the same billboard with a female nurse clad in just a bra wearing a stethoscope saying men too have a choice of who does their care.
Nobody has responded.
Regards to all,
NTT
I saw that billboard in a news segment and listened to the hospital spokesperson (a young woman) talking about women needing a choice for all-female care. I doubt it even occurs to them that their male patients might want same gender care too. All-female health settings is not a new idea but it is disheartening nonetheless that so many still think doing the same for men doesn't also make sense.
A parallel to the medical setting standard that women need privacy but men don't can be seen in the current transgender bathroom/locker room debates that have many people in an uproar on both sides of the issue. The entire discussion centers on biological males going into women's bathrooms and locker rooms. The flip side, biological females going into men's bathrooms and locker rooms is not part of the debate. I do not want to debate the transgender issue at all, and won't. I just wanted to point out the observation in that it parallels what goes on in medical settings such as NTT reminded us again with the hospital billboard example.
Biker,
Totally agree. I opted out of all that, I just look for the nearest bushes outside…
Sarcasm, but there is a point there.
— Banterings
"OK Gang"..here is a current today topic that I think fits in with the general discussion of this thread of "Patient Modesty".
What do you think about the current federal orders to schools regarding allowing transgender students to enter an use a toilet based on their selected gender and not the gender at birth? Those for this order will praise the anti-discriminatory basis for this order while those against will argue about fear and anti-modesty. So.. how do you all look at this issue? ..Maurice
May I start the discussion?: What has been repeated here is that the patient's gender is ignored by the medical profession in that patient's care. Is it discrimination? Well, now this U.S. federal ruling says we recognize those "patients" who had medically or surgically been treated into an opposing gender and we are going to attend to their issues of dignity. Isn't that a beginning to the problem being discussed here? ..Maurice.
Dr. Bernstein, I think the parallel between transgender bathroom access and same sex care in medical settings is limited to the fact that the focus is only on how it impacts women. Where bathrooms and healthcare settings are not the same is that there is real exposure in healthcare settings. There is privacy in bathroom stalls and when it comes to urinals, only biological men will be using them no matter who else is in the bathroom.
Locker room access is a much closer parallel to healthcare settings than are bathrooms. Thus far the media is ignoring that piece but when they come around to it, we all know the concern will only be women's locker rooms.
A high school here in VT just announced it will convert all of its bathrooms to single stall units and that modifications will be made to locker rooms so as to accommodate students who desire individual privacy. They also plan to punish boys who use the new access inappropriately. No word on punishing girls who do the same. I wonder if they assume girls can't violate a boy's privacy or won't.
The American nurses association vehemently pursues
companies, organizations that portray nurses in sexy
outfits or advertises nurses in a sexual manner. When
I say this I'm referring to female nurses and it is this
gender that they want to protect. Male nurses is another
story and nothing will be said nor done regarding male
nurses on a billboard.
PT
Hello Everyone:
Of course nothing will be said about shirtless male nurses on a billboard because as far as the ANA is concerned male nurses like male patients don't have a leg to stand on and are supposed to just keep taking it & taking it.
There are many places one can get references on a doctor. From family, friends, the internet.
How about a nurses qualifications to do specific tasks like say a urinary catheterization.
They come to do one of thee most personal invasions of one's privacy and all they really tell ya is "relax, I've done this hundreds of times".
I for one feel that every hospital if they aren't already, should be keeping records on these nurses and these records should be made available to patients so they can make an informed decision as to whether or not they want to let this person proceed or not.
Especially when it comes to any type of invasive procedure.
If I don't know you & have no way "other than what you & your fellow employees say" to verify you're qualified & proficient, you ain't doing nothing to me. I'd rather self-cath. I've seen all the videos & would probably do it as good or better.
Went to see a friend over the weekend in the hospital. Having kidney issues. While I was there this nurse kept trying to talk him into letting her cath him.
She kept telling him he'd feel better (which he knew he would) then she told him don't worry your in good hands, I've done this hundreds of times on men.
That scared him as he said to me how does he really know what she's saying is true.
Normally for something that personal, they would clear the room 1st. They only way he would allow it is if I stayed so I agreed.
So I talked with him about his girlfriend to keep him relaxed and his mind off of what was going on so she started the procedure.
She couldn't pass it thru. She blamed it on him not being relaxed. He was very relaxed. Talking to him he wasn't paying any attention to her.
She started over.
She couldn't do it a 2nd. time.
She was getting ready to try again when I motioned to him to stop.
He told her no more. She got miffed saying he wasn't relaxing.
Needless to say he was done with it. She went & got her supervisor who was going to do it but he again said so. They said they'd be back later to try again.
Luckily for him about 2 1/2 hours later he voided on his own.
There needs to be something somewhere to guide the patient about the nursing staff other than their word. I feel they use that survey that voted nursing to be the best profession to do a lot of the procedures they do. If they weren't voted number one I think people would start asking more questions & not just blindly saying go ahead.
If I took the word of my friend, I won't be going to his hospital. Nurses there don't sound too proficient in their procedures.
Regards to all,
NTT
Maurice,
First off let me respond to your transgender question: Philadelphia is like SanFrancisco on the East Coast (IMHO). Born of the Quaker tradition of tolerance and acceptance, Philadelphia has always been a very progressive city. Even though smaller compared to Boston and New York, it thrives with a rich culture and (BTW), is the epicenter for medical education for the US with its combination of medical schools and pharmaceutical companies.
I have many friends across the LGBT spectrum (both those who are LGBT and their family and friends). I just spent this past weekend with some of those friends, so I feel qualified to answer this question. The "insult” to transgender individuals in health care is mainly lack of affirmation (acknowledgement) of the gender that their brain is (as opposed to their body). This case illustrates the problem: Court Rules That Transgender Patient Tortured By Doctors Is Protected Under Obamacare
The secondary harm is in not addressing the transgender person’s choice of gender of provider. That is the problem men have. With men, their gender is marginalized and nullified, with transgender individuals, someone else is assigning their gender to them incorrectly.
Here is another problem, for people that are suppose to be so learned and compassionate, to not realize the depth that these issues affect patients erodes all trust and credibility that they and the profession have.
This article; Her Office is Skid Row, demonstrates companion and how healthcare should be. Notice how the issue of trust is discussed and earned. Again, this emphasizes a point that I had great debate with Maurice when I first began posting here and that is people would refuse lifesaving care to preserve (protect) their mental well being and dignity.
— Banterings
Good Afternoon:
"people would refuse lifesaving care to preserve (protect) their mental well being and dignity".
Sad but ABSOLUTELY true Banterings
Regards,
NTT
Another point I forgot to add to the previous comment:
The North Carolina law that started this whole thing was said to “protect children.” If the law was really to protect children, then why not make it illegal for adults and children to use the same bathroom.
When people against gay marriage claimed it was to protect marriage, I would ask them why they are not supporting abolishing divorce?
The best commentary on the whole issue was by Updated list: Who has spoken for, against NC’s new LGBT law.
What many in healthcare forget is that medicine (the profession) and healthcare exist within our society. They are subject to the laws, norms, mores, and expectations of society. Despite what they may think is best or the correct course, it must comply with society.
When it does not meet society’s rules, society will impose rules upon it to make it “bend.” For instance, when the profession had a poor showing in self-policing, malpractice premiums increased to the point that small groups could no longer afford them, so physicians had to join corp med with rigid structure, rules, and non-physicians in charge.
Society never took that self regulation away, boards still regulate licensing, society just made it unfeasible to operate outside a rigid structure with increased accountability.
— Banterings
At numerous restaurants I've noticed that anyone walking by the men's restrooms can see people standing at the urinals when the door is open. One would think architects would be more intellectual in the design of these structures, therefore I say let the LGBT pass and
all urinals are removed which is what they want. Better for us men in the long run as I see it. Of course the complaints would increase
from the transgender community as toilet seats are never raised in men's restrooms, then in ten years or so the urinals would come
back again.
PT
You may have noticed the E-cards during nurses week. The popular one with the caption of a female nurse and the comment
" I see more penis than a prostitute". Happy nurses week
Why has the American nurses association not jumped on that?
What if male nurses sent out a similar card with the caption
" I see more pussy than a gigilo". Happy nurses week
PT
Good morning All:
PT you asked, "Why has the American nurses association not jumped on that?"
Simple, the ANA leadership thinks it's funny & they condone behavior like that from their female members. They like most of their female members have absolutely no respect for men.
If a male nurse sent out a card like you stated, he'd probably be lynched and censured.
If the public saw some of the crap they do, they'd lose their favored status rating with the public very quickly.
Their profession demands respect, this isn't the way to get it. Respect isn't given, it's earned and they haven't earned any lately.
Regards to all,
NTT
Nurse's Week e-card per PT:
" I see more penis than a prostitute". Happy nurses week
Though they would all say such a card is intended just to be funny, it is disturbing nonetheless. I say that because humor is often a way of projecting power at the expense of others, but in a way that you can get away with it. Said another way, nurses could never get away publicly saying they like looking at naked male patients in a voyeuristic way but it is easy to get away with it if done humorously such as with the e-card. The e-card makes it clear that to some a penis is not the same as an elbow.
The flip side as PT suggested:(" I see more pussy than a gigilo". Happy nurses week) would not be tolerated as humor though because humor still has to pass a politically correct test, and making female patients vulnerable in this manner is very politically incorrect.
A viewer apparently to this blog thread with the name Don wrote me the following by e-mail. I would rather that my visitors here provide the response. ..Maurice.
Recently my wife had a very complex hip replacement surgery. Curiosity is killing me with questions. Was she cleaned and draped completely naked while still alert? How many people are actually in the or while she lay their naked? Do the draping people keep a cover in front while cleaning and draping? I know the surgeon had to "see her" as her life is in his hands. I don't doubt his ethics in any way, he is amazing at what he does! Another question is why would a male nurse wait for the female shift manager to go on break and then barge in an hour after surgery and demand he be the one to out the bed pan in, full frontal no lube. Later I watched how the female nurse gently lifted the better leg and slid it in from the side without revealing her and wondered if he knew what he was doing or just a perv. Needless to say that was the last time I allowed him in the room, but then when I was helping her with the pan he came in to peek and said he just needed gloves. Should I file a complaint? We're going back in the fall for the other hip and I don't want to see him.
Thank you,
Don
Concerning the email from the apparently distraught husband, of course I wasn't there and so can't truly know what happened but it sounds like the husband is just extremely sensitive to any man seeing his wife.
Last month my wife (63 years old) had major colorectal surgery and she said the male nurses were more gentle, caring, and considerate than the females. Based on her experience with several male nurses she hopes there will be more men in the profession in the future.
Just an observation.
Yesterday I had a periodic cystoscopy which is about as intimate a procedure as a man can have. The female nurse who did all the prep was a NP and as with all of the others before her was extremely professional. The waiting room was full of men roughly my age and though I don't know specifically what they were there for, I can be pretty sure it involved the same or similar intimate exposure as I had. The doctors are all men. The nursing staff are all women.
The day before yesterday at the fitness club I go to I observed a pretty fit guy who was maybe early 30's first put on a baggy teeshirt that would partially cover him were he to be exposed. Then with a towel wrapped around him he did what I call the towel dance trying to put on his underwear without removing the towel. Of course the guys younger than him don't change at all in the locker room. I thought about him yesterday and wondered what is to become of his generation when they come to the age where they are frequent flyers in the medical system requiring intimate care. It is as if young men are on a collision course with the medical world, but they don't know it yet.
A thought here that likely isn't going to be popular.
Guys that are say 55+ grew up with far greater exposure to same sex nudity in schools (showers, swimming, physicals) than younger guys did. Also, in their younger days the older guys were not afforded any privacy/modesty considerations at all in medical settings, and certainly not in military settings. This is why they don't complain now if their intimate exposure is minimized to that which is necessary and they are treated respectfully. Those changes represent a huge improvement for them.
Women represent about half of the new doctors entering the workforce and except perhaps for very rural areas with limited choices and luck of the draw in emergency rooms, men and women pretty much already have their choice as to the gender of their doctors.
Nurses & tech staff are upwards of 95% female with schools now maybe being 10% men/90% women. We will thus see more male nurses & techs in the future than we have now but for the most part nursing and the tech roles are going to be female dominated for the foreseeable future. Yes it would be good if there were programs to encourage more men into those fields but given the sheer size of the imbalance, it would take several decades to balance the genders. As of today that process hasn't even begun.
With that as background and thinking of the extreme modesty of younger guys with other guys, let alone with women, what I have been pondering is whether we have done guys a disservice by shielding them from nudity growing up. I am not advocating for the kind of forced nudity I was subjected to growing up, but yet the current practice of shielding boys from nudity growing up probably isn't the answer either. Growing up extremely modest as they have been for several decades is going to make their future intimate medical care harder than it is for the current batch of older guys.
I will grant that now it seems so many kids are fat and no doubt there are body image issues that come with it, plus there have always been boys who will have body image issues over their endowment relative to others. This is why I'm not keen on going back to the forced nudity days which surely were traumatic for some. My kids are in their 30's and so this is not an issue for me to resolve personally but I am thinking if I could to do it again, that maybe I'd of seen to it that my kids grew up not being as shielded from nudity as they were.
Don, what the male nurse did to your wife doesn't bode well for modesty. He's either
plain disrespectful,or so careless that he cannot be bothered. So much for the myth,
(it's just nonsense) that male nurses or medical personal are more caring than fema-
males!!! As a woman, I've never observed such thing.
I do have some beef with the outlook of biker in Vermont. When he says "he's just way
too sensitive about other men seeing their wife" he's speaking not only for those men,
but for their wives or female partners as well. Let tell you one thing: women who have
experience egregious disrespect and/or sexual harassment form male medical personnel
(which I wouldn't let touch me with a teen-foot pole) are usually FIERCE about keeping
those people away from them. Frequent flyers in the medical system? For some, that just
won't happen. As for the new sheltering from nudity, it has nothing to do with the medi-
cal establishment and more to do with hazing, bullying, and even rape. There is no to go back to the (bad) old days for either gender.
Biker, thank you for your response. I understand that medical staff have to be able to do their job. I trust the surgeon and his staff completely as they appear to have strong ethics. Most of my concerns come from curiosity, however the one male nurse I mentioned in my opionin was not respectful of my wife's modesty nor did he acknowledge what the doctors advised me should happen. I don't understand why he did what he did and when he did it. He won't be in her room ever again, my concern is that he doesn't read the charts regarding what patient had what surgery and treats every case the same. He should inform himself about the patient and realize how difficult her surgery was before moving her leg around like it was a standard procedure and also learn a little discression when a patient needs to use a bed pan. If you read my message I stated that he was the only nurse to shove the pan in full frontal no lube and that all the female nurses gently did so from the side with lube. She was in no pain prior to him coming in and then laid there in agony for the rest of the night. I feel he should be reprimanded, I tried to speak to him but all he could do was stutter but sir. I feel that every nurse has to be aware of the situation, medical care is not fast food and every situation is different.
Maria, of the numerous nurses my wife had during her recent hospital stay, only one was problematic. This was an RN who regretfully for my wife was the discharge nurse. She sent my wife home without most of the instructions she was supposed to receive and with the wrong catheter set up. That caused much needless pain and discomfort which fortunately Visiting Nurses were able to rectify within a couple days. When the surgeon found out he was horrified with the careless manner in which my wife was discharged. As for the male nurses, what my wife and I think is that because so many women reject male nurses simply because they are male that these guys (there were at least 3) were just trying extra hard to make women patients comfortable with their presence. That you don't want male nurses at all is OK too and at least you as a woman have that choice. Men only rarely have that choice.
Don, the problem with that nurse was probably he is just not a fully competent nurse, not unlike the discharge nurse my wife had. It isn't that he is a male nurse just as the problem nurse my wife had isn't reflective of all female nurses.
Marie, you are correct that sheltering guys from nudity these past few decades had nothing to do with the medical system but it does have great implications for the medical system. As these young guys age most of them are going to need intimate care, some on a regular basis and some only rarely but its going to happen for most of them. They are almost guaranteed that most of the available nursing and tech staff are going to be female as well as half the doctors. All I am trying to say is that maybe we need to rethink how far we have carried the no nudity ever stance for boys as they grow up. If I were raising my kids again there are some things I'd do differently to help them on this issue.
I am concerned about the direction of this discussion. While it is true that there are many people who do not care about their modesty, there are many people who do care about modesty. The medical system should work hard to accommodate patients’ wishes for modesty and same gender intimate care.
People who feel strongly about their modesty should not compromise and it may mean they would have to drive farther for medical care. In fact, one man told me that he was willing to drive far for an all-male team and that he could use this as a vacation.
We should never try to train people to accept nudity and let go of their modesty. While it is true that many urologists do not employ enough male nurses or technicians, modest male patients should refuse those practices and drive as far as they have to find an all-male team or an urologist that is willing to do procedures by himself.
Compassion and professionalism make no difference for patients who feel strongly about their modesty. Many women would not be comfortable with male nurses even if they were very compassionate. The same can be said of female nurses for male patients. One man on this discussion a few years ago even shared that he would rather an inexperienced male than a female with 30 years of experience.
On our brochure for MPM, we include a statement from a husband who fought to keep male technicians from accessing his wife’s breasts for an EKG. A female nurse shared that she wished that her husband loved her that much. Husbands who do not want their wives to have intimate medical care by male professionals are not strange. It is strange that people would not question a husband if he did not want a next door male neighbor to see his wife showering, but it is different in the name of medicine. Also, there are many wives who do not want their husband’s private parts to be seen and touched by female medical professionals no matter how compassionate and skilled they are. Some spouses value the intimacy in their marriages and feel that no one of the opposite sex should see their spouse naked and it does not change in name of medicine. Medical professionals are humans like all of us.
Medical Patient Modesty has worked with people from different backgrounds who feel strongly about their modesty. We have worked with atheists, Christians, liberals, etc.
Misty
Misty, I agree that people should have a choice in their medical caregivers and I very much wish that nursing and tech staff was 50/50 male/female. The reality is that it isn't nor are we even remotely trending in that direction. What is scary is that most of the very modest people don't even know the double standard exists yet because they're still relatively young and healthy. When the time comes perhaps their collective voice will be loud enough to set the gender balance change in motion.
My issue is that we as a society have made the problem worse by raising a couple generations of increasingly modest guys without simultaneously addressing the medical system gender imbalance that those guys are going to be thrust into. We are not helping them by shielding them from nudity to the extent that we are if what they are going to face in the future is a sea of female nurses and techs.
Thank you Maria, that nurse did not properly evaluate the situation and came barging in like he knew something. My wife had her leg lenghtened by almost two inches and he had no knowledge of the extremity of her surgery. When I told him that the surgeon told me do not move her leg until I see her tomorrow and he did anyway was an outright disrespect of her condition. We have been together for 25 years and I have seen the progression of her disease and the surgeon asked me about the changes in her abilities since we had children so he knew what he was working with. When I tried to speak with this nurse he acted like I had no idea. All nurses need to read the charts to better understand what they're dealing with. I feel this nurse although trying to work hard was just overstepping boundaries and not listening to me as her advocate. Thankfully I was there the entire time to ensure the best for her. Also he had no business peeking in to get gloves when the curtains were closed, I know that nurses see it all everyday but they need to remember that "we" don't and our dignity needs to be upheld.
Thank you again!
Biker, thank you for your input. I agree that it isn't a male/ female situation but nurses need to realize that for us this is huge and for them
It's everyday routine. Every patient should expect complete modesty unless there is a reason and I hope that more people step up and voice their opinion regarding their loved ones when under medical care. I wish the best for you and your wife.
Don, the cystoscopy that I had this week can serve as an example of the manner in which medical staff should interact with patients concerning intimate procedures. The first thing she did was introduce herself and tell me her status (Nurse Practioner). I then undressed and put on the standard hospital gown in a private room attached to the procedure room. I get on the table without any exposure and before the nurse raised the gown to start the prep she asks me if it is OK to lift the gown so that she can start, tells me what the 1st step is (inserting a numbing agent) indicating that it could hurt a little (it doesn't) and waits for me to tell her that it is OK for her to do so. She then reaffirms that she is going to lift the gown before she does it. As soon as she lifts the gown she covers the abdominal/genital area with a special cloth that leaves only the penis exposed. She then tells me the subsequent steps in similar fashion before she does anything. When she was ready she needed to leave the room to tell the doctor that she was, and she leaves a sign on the door saying that there is a patient in the room so that nobody would just barge in. I couldn't see that of course and only know because she told me. Had someone opened the door, where I was positioned I would not have been in plain sight. The doctor was delayed and while waiting for him she maintained eye contact with me while we talked, vs her eyes being elsewhere. When the doctor was done and removed the scope the nurse immediately removed that special cloth and lowered my gown to cover me back up.
Even having done this procedure as many times as I have I am self-conscious being exposed to her in that manner but nothing she did caused me to be needlessly embarrassed. There is a difference. I have had a number of nurses over the years for that procedure and each one has followed the exact same protocol.
Do a search using yahoo " Is that a Twinkie in your pocket" You then get a much broader picture of nurse quacktitioners
as well as all the other female healthcare workers and their state of mind.
PT
Biker in Vermont,
I disagree with this to a degree:
My issue is that we as a society have made the problem worse by raising a couple generations of increasingly modest guys without simultaneously addressing the medical system gender imbalance that those guys are going to be thrust into. We are not helping them by shielding them from nudity to the extent that we are if what they are going to face in the future is a sea of female nurses and techs.
I love the idea of raising guys to be modest. The problem is not with the guys who are modest. The medical system has a serious problem. Many men feel intimated to speak up and I feel this is why we do not have many all-male urology clinics or urologists that employ male nurses. It is time for men to speak up about how they feel. Many men just avoid medical care. I think men should bombard male urologists with letters asking they hire male nurses. Think about how popular all-male clinics would be and more men would seek medical care. We have to fight to make the medical industry accommodate patients’ wishes for same gender intimate care. It made me sad to hear from a man in his 60s who cannot get a guarantee he would have an all male team for prostate surgery in Detroit area. He shared with me that a female patient in his area could be guaranteed an all female team for surgery.
I agree with you that many healthy young men do not realize how hard it is to get an all-male intimate care. A number of men may never have intimate procedures until they are in their 40’s or 50’s. In fact, some young men who may need intimate procedures earlier in life may be very shocked when they go to the hospital or doctor for an illness that require intimate procedures to learn that female nurses routinely do intimate procedures on men. I was encouraged about 6 years ago to see a male nurse tending to a young male patient in ICU at a hospital. He closed the curtain and went in this guy’s room (I think maybe he had to give him a bath). Women are much more likely to have intimate procedures earlier than men. I encourage you to check out Dr. Sherman’s article about patient gender preferences.
Also, I think patient modesty needs to be addressed in nursing schools. Based on my research and conversations with some nurses, most nursing schools do not even address patient modesty.
Of course, most modest patients do not care about the gender of their doctor and nurse for non-intimate procedures such as stitches to wounds on face.
Misty
Misty, we don't fundamentally disagree on how things should be. Where I differ is in my assessment of the situation. I see a male/female imbalance that is so great that it will take decades to correct, and with that correction barely having begun. That said, I suppose meaningful results could be seen more quickly if we could just get enough male nurses & techs going into areas with abundant male intimate exposure. This would include urology, pediatrics (for the teenage boys), and school nursing (for sports physicals and the like). Operating Room and Emergency Room nurses too.
My 32 year old son has never had any intimate exposure to a female medical person. He had a male pediatrician growing up and grew up in the age of no mandated showers after gym, no school-provided physicals, no swimming classes in the nude etc. I recently had a talk with him on this topic, emphasizing that he can at request male nurses & techs and that he does not have to quietly suffer needless exposure or unprofessional conduct by anyone in the medical field. He heard me but only in a theoretical way being he has not experienced the world of medicine yet. He is one of those young men on a collision course with that sea of female nurses and techs. This is why I am thinking maybe I did him a disservice in going along with the no-nudity-ever mantra that took hold several decades ago. We had a nice in-ground pool from when he was just 2 years old and it could have been as simple as letting him grow up skinny dipping in it with whomever else wanted to do the same, and for however long he wanted to do it himself. Nothing forced but rather just allowed.
I on the other hand am one of the guilty ones who hasn't demanded male nurses & techs. Prior to 11 years ago when I began my bladder cancer saga, the few intimate medical setting exposures I had were not positive by the standards I now expect and would insist upon. All I ever knew since childhood was guys are not afforded any consideration in this regard, that we were instead supposed to just tough it out because that's what guys did. For the past 11 years I have been consistently treated in a respectful and professional manner, but always by female nurses/techs. Early on it wouldn't even have occurred to me that I could ask why there weren't any male nurses there. Now I know I can.
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