What have you been reading, hearing or TV viewing that has provoked some feelings of comfort or concern about what is happening in the world of medicine, medical care, treatment or science? Ethics is all about doing the right thing. Are you aware of any issues in medicine or biologic science which are being done right, could be improved or in fact represent totally unethical behavior? Write about them here.. and I will too! ..Maurice (DoktorMo@aol.com)
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TO FIND A TOPIC OF INTEREST TO YOU ON THIS BLOG, SIMPLY TYPE IN THE NAME OR WORDS RELATED TO THE TOPIC IN THE FIELD IN THE LEFT HAND SIDE AT TOP OF THE PAGE AND THEN CLICK ON “SEARCH BLOG”. WITH WELL OVER 900 TOPICS, MOST ABOUT GENERAL OR SPECIFIC ETHICAL ISSUES BUT NOT NECESSARILY RELATED TO ANY SPECIFIC DATE OR EVENT, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIND WHAT YOU WANT. IF YOU DON’T PLEASE WRITE TO ME ON THE FEEDBACK THREAD OR BY E-MAIL DoktorMo@aol.com
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Now is the time to move on to this Volume 131. There are still many aspects of this blog topic title which can be "born" or further developed. ..Maurice
posted by Maurice Bernstein, M.D. @ 4:40:00 PM
38 comments
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38 Comments:
Yes, it's time to move on to this new Volume regarding patient dignity and your view of what those words mean. ..Maurice.
I know I have posted this before but can’t remember where? We were having a cookout and a life long friend of my wife was relaying a story that occurred years earlier when she was dropping off some reports at a urologist office. The doctor was not in and as she entered the office all the girls were laughing it up and she asked if they were having a party and what was so funny? They told her their last patient had the biggest D-ck of any patient they had seen in that office and then showed her the chart they were keeping of all the other men’s sizes. This was not for medical reasons it was for their own amusement. My wife saw the look on my face and asked her to say no more because she knew how I felt about things like that. I might add I had been to this urologist as a patient myself. How many of these men knew how badly they were being violated? This is an up close and personal experience that I would have never known about if it hadn’t come up in a conversation about weather this doctor had retired or not. These are the kind of things that go on that even the doctor of that practice had no idea was happening . Because access is given to opposite sex individuals of patients genitals that is otherwise forbidden in society these are the kinds of things that are to be expected. I can’t imagine a group of male nurses having a conversation or chart of all the Various men’s sizes ? More than likely they would be registering various women’s attributes . Bottom line is it’s not all cupcakes and unicorns like they would like you to believe
Jeff
Hi All,
This story is doing the rounds on social media, so you may have already seen it. If not, there is a video showing personnel at a dental practice reading aloud from a cancer patient's journal. They are giggling as the patient describes their thoughts, concerning various treatment options:
Premier Dental Group
Do you see now the behavior of Trump and the goals of the Republican party
under Trump as now presented to the public contrasting with what is expected to be the goals and behavior of the leaders of the Democratic party to all American citizens? Do you think the contrast of the goals and behavior will now to allow medical/surgical decision- making something much easier to make and accept ..or will it all continue to be political in many ways? ..Maurice.
Trump does not support WHO in making medical decisions for Americans. Trump also believes abortion should be left up to the individual states or Congress along with his position of abortion should be allowed in certain circumstances. I do see from the prior vaccine mandates of the Biden/Harris regime they do not believe in patient autonomy. They believe they have the right to force medical "treatments" of their choice on us. Trump believes in individual rights. I also believe there will be an effort to thin out the ranks of social security via Medicare treatments for certain groups if Harris is elected. I also believe Harris will encourage more confused children to sexually mutilate themselves while also believing these same children who she says have the maturity to change their sex do not have the same maturity to have a gun. Such wisdom in the DemocRat Party. JR
Dr. Bernstein, certainly the parties have differing opinions on various aspects of healthcare but neither seem particularly concerned with things like patient privacy or dignity. Nothing seems to change in that regard when one party replaces the other in the White House, nor does it differ in Blue vs Red States.
The two parties differ on things like abortion, how healthcare is funded and for who it is funded, but neither seems to care that men die years sooner than women. There is no talk of a federal Office of Men's Health or prioritizing any funding relative to men's health by either party. The Democrat platform for the current election has numerous women's health priorities but none for men. It seems their priority is healthcare for women by women. The sole full service hospital & Level 1 Trauma Center in my State is concerned that minority patients need to see more physicians that look like them and so they have instituted an equity mentoring program for minority females in grades 7 - 12 in hopes of generating more minority doctors. Minority boys in grades 7 - 12 are not eligible to participate in the program. Apparently only female patients need to see providers that look like them. If that doesn't make it clear what the Democrat priorities are, nothing does. It is as if male patients are an afterthought. This is in an overwhelmingly Democrat & Progressive Party enclave, not that the Republicans care about male patients either.
Biker or at least I believe the post was from you, I agree. Neither party cares about the bodily dignity of men. It absolutely floors that such blatant racism is allowed to happen in our time but I have read so many articles about minority patients wanting to see only minority health care providers. However, I have read some hospital systems have put into place policies punishing White patients who want to see White providers. The justification that may used to allow this blatant example of racism is entirely above my comprehension level. It is a Woke policy. Yes, the Demo platform has women's health initiatives which mainly concern the right to kill babies. However, when it comes down to really protecting the bodily autonomy of women, it fails because it is this same Demo party that has said WHO should have the supreme right during what is called a health emergency. This means that same woman who must be able to murder a baby as the result of her irresponsible behavior does not have the right to refuse a vaccine. So a woman has the right to have something (a baby) from her body but does not have the right to refuse to have something put into her body? This is Demo (Marxist) policies at its best. What I found interesting is at the DNC convention there is a mobile Planned Parenthood RV there that is offering vasectomies but not offering female sterilization as far as I could find. In the political lopsided view of things, it seems it is a man's responsibility to make sure a woman does not get pregnant. To me this reinforces the idea we as women can say we are responsible for our bodily actions but in reality, someone must actually take the responsibility. It is the whole attitude that men are at fault and this lends to the overall attitude that men seeking care are often mistreated by female staff who refuse to recognize their bodily privacy rights. When hate is taught, there are consequences. What is also interesting is it is known there is a nursing shortage and that there aren't as many female MDs as males. Well, they have taken incentives to fix the female MD issue as Biker represented and not very well because they are purposely discriminating against young boys. However, on the issue of nursing where is the push to better open the doors for men to bust into a primarily woman field? This is the politics of the Progressives. Progress is only what they want it to be. The Republicans seem to have the attitude of letting the workplace work out its own issues which it doesn't appear to be doing very well. Rather than the color of someone, I am more interested in getting doctor/nurse/whoever that I can understand meaning no language barrier which IMO thoroughly endangers my safety if they cannot plainly speak to me. No one is addressing this safety issue either. JR
Good Afternoon:
As far as a federal Office of Men's Health goes you can basically forget that avenue.
Representative Donald Payne Jr. A democrat in the House of Representative brought forth a bill H.R.5986 - Men’s Health Awareness and Improvement Act.in the 117th Congress (2021-2022).
It was referred to the Subcommittee on Health where it died.
Representative Payne was going to reintroduce the bill this year even though it had little chance to go anywhere with the current divisions in the House of Representatives.
Problem was, he passed away earlier this year before he had the chance to reintroduce the bill.
His republican counterpart in the House of Representatives is a no show on men's health issues.
As for myself, I've notified my state & federal elected officials not to expect votes from myself or my family as none of them have done anything to advance men's healthcare.
That my friends is all I have for now. Have a great day.
Regards,
NTT
Good afternoon:
Someone commented about a federal Office of Men's Health.
It's not going to happen any time soon as the representative from NJ that put forth the original H.R.5986 - Men’s Health Awareness and Improvement Act to create the Office of Men's Health passed away earlier this year before he could reintroduce the bill.
His republican counterpart in the House has been a no show so far as far as men's health is concerned.
As for myself, I've already notified my state & federal elected officials they can look elsewhere this year for votes as they've done nothing to advance men's healthcare.
That's all I have for now. Have a great day.
Regards,
NTT
NTT, neither party cares is what it comes down to. Boys do not graduate high school at the same rate as girls, yet the only gender-specific programs found in public schools are geared towards the girls encouraging them into STEM fields and such. Boys and men overwhelmingly dominate juvenile homes & prisons, and that is simply accepted as normal rather than focusing efforts on the root causes that lead boys astray. In an age where so many grow up in single parent (mother) households and go to schools w/o any male teachers often until middle or high school, anyone who dares say these troubled boys need a strong male role model in their life does so at their own peril. The women in charge are failing them, but that's OK as they're only boys.
In healthcare, any medical specialty in which men dominate is deemed problematic and efforts are being made to encourage more women to choose those fields. Any specialty that women dominate is deemed OK as is. The whole "patients need to see doctors who look like them" that is used to encourage females in general and female minorities in particular is never extended to to non-physician roles where women overwhelmingly dominate, except to the extent that more female minority nurses or techs are needed. The "Looks like me" problems being focused on never include male patients.
Despite the "equal equal equal" cries anywhere that men have an advantage, 18 year old girls are still not required to register for the draft because that kind of equal isn't what they are looking for.
This being the current state of our society, and men dying years sooner than women on average, there is zero chance Congress is going to do anything that suggests male healthcare needs any attention.
What is missing on this bioethics topic is the input of views of the current social-sexual and medical behaviors as written by teen-aged or middle-school boys and girls. But all we see here is the views of "old" men and women. We need input from those experiencing the very early phases of their life and experience with the medical profession.
Doesn't everyone here see this missing view input of this topic? ..Maurice.
Good thought Dr. Bernstein. Yes, the thoughts of young people would be informative of societal changes from their perspective. Us older guys had mandatory showers after gym in Middle & High School, and some of us experienced mandatory swimming classes in the buff. My understanding is that showers are mostly a thing of the past in schools now. Also I have observed in adult gym locker rooms that the younger guys are much more shy than the older guys. How that all translates into healthcare settings is anyone's guess.
For the most part I don't think boys are subjected to semi-public school & sports physicals anymore, most now getting it done with their own doctors, though I believe in lower income settings that schools may still be providing physicals, but I don't know how they are done.
Most young people haven't experienced much of the healthcare system beyond physicals and very routine matters vs the kinds of more personal care that can come as we age. But I do wonder if boys are acculturated to female dominance in healthcare moreso than us older guys are in that I believe females are now about 75% of pediatricians, plus of course the female PA's and NP's that may be seeing adolescents in pediatric offices are likely greater than 75%. How many boys grow up ever having had any healthcare from male staff?
I also wonder to what extent mothers advocate for boys, especially young teens, that balk at getting physicals from female pediatricians. Are those boys supported or do they get what amounts to a feminist lecture?
I have been AWOL here because I don't care about this stuff anymore.
Truth is that 1990-2001 I found some of the sexual misconduct amusing, but at a certain point when I was getting old & facing chaperones I wanted to end all of it, & ironically that's impossible & that's when it bothered me.
I am not recovering from my meniscus tear surgery & it looks like my knee is destroyed. Technically I'm due for I knee implant, but I know better than to have any open surgery. So I'll die before I live with with this knee pain, & I"ll due before having an implant, so fill in those blanks. My teeth are ruined, & my back is destroyed too, & I won't accept it. It's also a lonely fruitless life trapped in a blue collar Hellhole. My parrot was my only saving grace & I'll never have anything like him again.
I am frantically trying to make my trailer living room a clean, spiffy, organized place where I can finally listen & watch opera DVDs, movies, & just relax until the 12th anniversary of my parrot's death in Winter, when I'll ritualistically deal with thus this untreatable misery on my own terms. No reason to post here anymore.
TC
I think most of us found this blog on our own. Young people probably wouldn't do that. I guess we COULD make some of our younger family members aware of this group. JF
Anyone here consider the value of Equine Assisted Therapy, Equine Facilitated Learning or Therapeutic Riding as approaches to the cognitive physical, emotional and social wellbeing of individuals with special needs? Consider reviewing this specific form of mental and emotional symptoms and the benefit of such therapy. A relative who walks along with the patients on their horses has brought this form of therapy to my attention. ..Maurice.
Of course, animal therapy is exceptionally beneficial for those who have enough compassion to understand the unconditional love and acceptance of animals. Our little toy parti schnauzer is who helped my husband so much after his medical/sexual assaults. He would just sit and hold him. I know older people who have no one but they have animals so they take care of themselves so they can take care of their animals because otherwise they know their animals would be throwaways once taken to a shelter as far too many are murdered at shelters. My friend who now has chosen suicide is only sticking around to make sure she can find permanent care for her therapy horses. Once she has secured their futures, she will go ahead with her suicide as she can no longer physically care for them nor can she any longer ride. Animals can bring comfort whereas humans may fail. JR
Where is everybody? Has this topic of Patient Dignity reached its completion of further value for those who have personal issues pertinent to the various aspects of personal and/or familial life? It certainly is possible that there are no other previous contributors or visitors have nothing to say or suggest on this topic.
But even ventilation can be clinically therapeutic. ..Maurice.
Dr. Bernstein,
I am not sure if people will come back and participate but my involvement usually coincides with the potential for medical modesty violations and how much stress I am under in my daily life. My medical situation is currently quiet as I have no impending medical/surgical situations. However, I can see that changing in the future as more urological procedure are likely in my future. At 68, I am starting to experience BPH symptoms and still have a couple of kidney stones but they are not actively causing me problems. Any medical intervention in either of these areas will bring modesty/dignity issues back into focus for me as most treatments involve very intimate exposure.
Like myself, any previously active posters have aged and perhaps have resigned themselves to the way things are. I am not feeling very optimistic about securing change particularly from a male perspective. While the percentage of male nurses has slowly increased, the increase in women attending medical school has risen sharply. Even finding a male doctor will become more difficult as time goes on as fewer men are attending college in relation to women.
It seems that younger men may also be more comfortable with all-female care. That in combination with younger people being willing to give up personal privacy in exchange for free social media accounts/email. Giving up all bodily autonomy may be an extension of the direction society is moving.
Newer platforms such as Reddit and Quora are attracting participants that might have found their way to this blog. I follow several threads on both these platforms and there are a number of dedicated contributors to those postings as well. I have seen references to your blog but the preference seems to be with the newer platforms.
I have been meaning to present a theory to the blog about why I think male-focused treatment options have not gained much traction and probably never will. I have resigned myself to fact that I will have to accept intimate treatment from female personnel but will still try to pick some specific battles for the sake of principle. An example of this would be the removal of a urinary catheter. There really is no reason to expose a patient except that it is convenient for the health care worker. I will insist on covering my genitals or will remove the catheter myself by cutting the balloon-port line. Another example will be to refuse intimate exposure during skin assessments and indicate that I can check that area and will inform the health care professional if there is a problem. I have also thought of offering to pay a bonus to male staff who volunteer for my case. I don’t know if that will fly with a surgical center/hospital, but I plan to try it should I need an intimate procedure in the future.
I would like to thank you again for all the tireless work you have done over the last 15+ years in moderating this blog. Having the insight of a medical professional has provided a tremendous value that is not always available on other platforms. Even though it took me 10 years to have the courage to contribute, your comments/direction and the input from the many contributors helped me through a very difficult time and allowed me to see that I was not alone in the way I felt.
I mentioned this before, but I totally understand if you are ready to relinquish the responsibility to maintain the blog to concentrate on your other interests. Of course, I don’t think this blog was a complete burden as I think you probably enjoyed the discourse and back and forth exchange of ideas in relation to your choice of profession. You should be very proud of the contributions that you have made to this discussion.
EM
Our niece is a true believer in the medical community propaganda.
In early June 2024, she had a procedure that required her to return later in June. When she went to the checkout desk the receptionist gave her a date and time to return. When the niece asked if she could she get a different date because of a conflict, the receptionist said that the next availability was in December [six months later]. Ever our niece realized that the receptionist was lying. I told our niece that the receptionist was proving to herself that the delivery of medicine is about those providing the service at the expense, both figuratively and literally, of those receiving the service.
The six months later appointment would be in January, seven months later. In other words, just do what I [receptionist] tell you even if the MD said six months.
Name another occupation where unskilled control freaks can prove to themselves that they have the power to control others with impunity?
Our niece still believes in medical propaganda even with my providing contrary experiences from this blog thread.
I dream of the day when the investors behind the titular owners of medical institutions decide to change the business model from a bureaucracy with profit to business and tell the mangers to consider that there is competition. Accordingly, maybe more men would see the doctor if they were treated with respect.
BJTNT
The healthcare system does not have any incentive to change the manner in which patients are treated. Demand is far greater than supply. In a couple weeks I will have an ultrasound of my foot two months after my primary care provider referred me for an appt. In January I will see a podiatrist five months after I was referred for an appt. Granted, neither are emergency scenarios but it does speak to the supply and demand side of things.
Baby Boomers are likely the majority of today's urology patients, most of which grew up in an age where we were socialized not to expect intimate privacy in healthcare settings (or elsewhere) and to suffer any embarrassment in silence. Few in this group are going to do much in the way of push back at this late stage.
With women having taken over the pediatrics specialty, younger generations of boys have and are growing up only seeing female doctors with 100% female staffing. They are being socialized to see healthcare as primarily coming from female providers, with an inexplicably alternate universe occurring at the same time where boys no longer are subject to group showers in schools and then carrying that over to shower avoidance in adult locker rooms. Be shy around other guys but accept intimate healthcare from women? Regardless, healthcare is racing towards female dominance amongst MD ranks as well as a continuance of female dominance below the MD level. As older male MD's retire, young female MD's are taking their place.
In the old days, male privacy only came if it offended females. In the current and likely future world, male privacy is only coming if females choose to allow them privacy. Using a non-health example to show how it has permeated society, what began with female reporters in professional athlete locker rooms extended to college athlete locker rooms, male prisons, juvenile detention centers, and from reports I have read, now into adult fitness center locker rooms where male cleaning staff are not allowed in female locker rooms but female cleaning staff are allowed into occupied male locker rooms.
TC here,
First off, about AI: after my telenol overdose my PCP ordered a complete blood panel through a najer medical lab monopoly. I went to it, & the blood analysis was something completely different.
No human interactivity, they objectify is, take out insurance money & from nr care if they even analyze the right stuff that's asked for. I saw her today & got a written hand sample request to give in person. . It's AI that sends is around I circles on the phone, & so ne companies have nobidyanswering the phone , ever!
She also olanakyzed my recent knee MRI & observed everything's sound, & should be ok after the hyaluronic acid is absorbed & all the knee water is aspirated +in Time) no implant should get immanent.
The medial branch blocks are working on my back, so I guess I might have a stay of execution.
Tac
TC here
Biker
I've shared this before here, but I want to remind you all that 1920-1980 all American schools that had swimming pools inflicted mandatory nude, public swimming for all the makes in junior high through high school. They had no choice! They adopted antiquated YMCA rules that prohibited wool bathing suits that clogged the filters, & water PH level issues. By then PH levels were tackled, & bathing suits were no longer wool, & the girls were allowed to wear them, but boys weren't. I've read accounts of young female swimming assistants attending to the boys, making sure they showered first, & hands on exams of genitals & feet for diseases. Modest boys were forced to expose themselves, & in the courts the only argument in favor of forcing nudity was "tradition*, & that held up.
Outside if courts there was an implicit "reason", or rationalization: that girls will have husbands & boys, & need to learn about them.
Believe it or not, this argument was openly espoused, will twin advice communists Anne Landers & Abigail Van Buren (Dear Abbey) leasing the charge. They wrote that at pools & bathing holes, it was poor etiquette for boys & young men to wear bathing suits, & and deprive girls & women of the opportunity to check them out. Boys that were modest needed to "get over it" & man up.
I'm one column, a women with a small boy wrote that a neighbor with 3 girls (no brothers) asked to borrow the boy so they could bath him & check out his privates, & asked should she just hand him over? Landers said, "no, invite the mother & the girls to bath him & check him out at her place!
I can't reconcile this because I was brought up by a misandrist mother who was raped by her grandfather, & she hated the male anatomy. I was brought up to believe that exposing myself to any woman would leave her feeling mortified. My first experiences with nurses at 32 shocked me. Their hands on aggressiveness & voyeurism contraducted my belief system, & what I read about in the context of things like nude swimming, female reporters in kicker rooms, & hospital medical care leave my head reeling.
If zi were a sports reporter & was offer a guaranteed contract of millions per year to intrude, barge into a locker room of naked female athletes, I would refuse! I have a moral compass.
TC
TC here
Dr B. Why did you post this link to those Dear Abbey & Anne Landers article. It proves I wasn't making it up. It bolsters the societal view espoused here in patient modesty here that makes can't have modesty unless women are genuinely bothered by naked men, but what men think dint matter.
I think members hear should see this to believe it!
https://sites.google.com/site/historicarchives4maleswimming/home/ii-archives-early-20th-century-after/b-syndicated-columnists
TC, my freshman year of college (1971), during orientation week boys were required to take a fitness test which consisted of running a mile within X number of minutes and a swimming test. The swimming test was in the nude, males-only being present. We had to wait in a very long line (nude) for our time to get in the pool one at a time to take the test. Freshman girls were not required to take a fitness or swimming test. Boys were required to take a year of gym classes, but could choose what courses they took, unless you failed the fitness or swimming test. In either case you would have to take a remedial fitness and/or swimming test as your 1st gym electives. I easily passed the fitness test but I was a poor swimmer and failed that test. The remedial swimming test was conducted in the nude, males only being present. The swimming coaches were fully dressed. Girls did not have a gym requirement.
News flash from TC! My PCP was lblowing smoke out of my ass by saying the knee MRI indicates that the pain, swelling, foot neuropathy pain shouldn't exist.
Well it does exist, & has fur 16 months so she's full of false optimism. My orthopedist has told me that the extra meniscus wear from his scope means severe arthritis fur the rest of not life. He asks me every time, are you ready to accept it.
Actually I won't accept it . I plan a secret, permanent home remedy that will go x everything on the 12th anniversary of my parrot's death, & it will be carried out quite ritualistically.
The only intervention for the knee is aspiration, & two steroid injections in October & January, but no hope. The knee pain & intolerable & goes up to my hip & keeps me up at night. The foot neuropathy pain is relentless. I step in a grain of sand on the floor, & it feels like a nail. It is a death sentence. I will not cut the knee up joint implant & live with a mass of scar tissue. If orthopedists were honest about the tissue damage damage from their surgery, they'd go vour if business. I've had two "open" surgeries, & regret the damage & scar tissue. You've all heard about my inguinal pain from that vericoselectomy. That's what I mean. I'll die before have open surgery again, & I won't live with this pain.
I just blasted ny doctir fur her intellectual dishonesty. That stupid, flakey bitch goes, the MRI shows everything is fine! Jesus did I give her Hell over the phone & about two dozen angry messages on fer portal.
BtW, you all should read that Dear Abbey & Anne Landers stuff about how much thuse ditty old bitches live naked boys. Unfortunately, Doctor B Censored it & didn't post it.
TC
TC to Biker,
Your school board of supervisors were perverted. I think anyone that interested in forcing another human being tio expose his privates has committed a crime against society , & should be immolated qqas a punishment. No hyperbole from me, I mean that.
I can't understand the driving force beji d authority figures that mandate genital exposure. A man's penis is due urinating (not a spectator sport) & for sex alone 11with a significant other -- unless he needs medical help & again, it should be dignified & nut a spectator spurt.
Who in the Hell are people to impose gratuitous nudity in others . I could & would NEVER do that. Truth is that there are guilty people with brains hardwired to control other the innocent, & they go into the military, law enforcement, become correctional officers , go into MEDICINE (!) & public school teaching & administration. I assert these people are inherently evil.
There even was a phenomenon of mandatory nude "posture photos* in Ivy League campuses & elsewhere. This persisted for about 100 years. There are nude photos of Dtane a Sawyer , Bush senior & Jr, Meryl Streep, & many others. I've seen the posture photo of James Franciscus & he wasn't nude. He was wearing sneakers.
Back in the nude swimming days varsity swimmers swam openly in public & had their nude photos in the year books. But every bit had to swun nude, & the girls were allowed wed by their gymnastics teachers to gawk at then through the cracks stroke call.
The boys were exposed on mandatory parents nights. The girls reported that it was no big deal, but it was a big deal as they later talked about the well endowed boys. No doubt about the truth of forced, public, boys inky, nude swimming, there are many pictures
The prevailing rationale behind this was tradition, & girls sex education. Dear Abbey & Anne Landers documented the need for girls to learn about bits at swimming pool.. There are some rare but credible accounts of bots being forced to bare it all & masturbate & ejaculation at girls sex education .
But Biker, think of being an unpopular nerdy guy, forced to bare it all in front of pretty, popular girls they had no chance of dating -- those girls dating hunks only . That is a totally severe, torture inflicted on the nerds, unnecessarily by arrogant, crazy school administrators. Who in the Hell are they.
I've said it & I'll say it again. People are inherently evil, & I'll be glad to extricate myself from all of you soon.
(Glad it didn't happen to me, & I was shocked to read it!!)
TC
Just saw that last post about college orientation in 1971. Not sure why it went through as anonymous. That was me. Biker
TC, I was startled when I arrived at the pool locker room with my bathing suit to change into, only to find out there would not be any suits. For me the uncomfortable part was just standing there seemingly forever in a long line of naked guys, not so much out of modesty but more due to the seeming lack of inherent dignity as it didn't seem necessary to be nude for so long while we waited our turns. Finally getting into the pool was a relief. Note that I was used to mandatory gang showers from 6th through 12th grade so the issue wasn't being nude with other guys but rather how it was all handled, and I think in part because the coaches & staff watching the tests were fully clothed.
The subsequent swimming classes were OK as we undressed, showered, got in the pool, and them reversed the process when we were done. It didn't feel like we were needlessly hanging out nude like it did while waiting in line for the initial test.
TC again. Well I'm going to openly confess that during dating dry spells when pretty girls weren't available (most of my adult life) I did indulge in CFNM (in Clothed Women Nude Man) humiliation fantasies, and geeky elderly & middle aged women were not excluded. (As long as I didn't have to see them baked(.
I write this now, because it's so amusing, & titillating to read how adamant Anne Landers & Abigail Van Buren were about forcing nudity on guys whether they wanted it or not!
.However, NOT IN MALE GROUPS OR GANGS! Nudity around other guys is an unacceptable turnoff.
I also must confess that when I went to those rare medical visits where genital exposure might take place (extremely rare, like 12-13 visits (w/9 improprieties by nurses!! in over 30 years() I was very business-like, has a very focused medical agenda, but as a defense mechanism, I had a medical fetish script going in the back of my mind. It seemed the nurses at those visits were acting out their roles to a T. Of course, in most cases I resisted them, & somehow felt victimized after the fact. But they all were kind of nice & affectionate, except in one case.
This doesn't include all the times nurses & MAs were playful with me, teasing, touching, even one harmed hugs one harmlessly making sexual double entadres. But some of the teasing seemed overtly sexual
I might've already said this, but at a continuing care facility, where I was transferred to facilitate a "safe release" from a 5150 last year (I was 66) the head nurse invariably stepped too close to me, reached out, draped one arm over my shoulder & caressed one or the other arm as she glared at mevclosely with a fixed affectionate smile. That was weird, & I wanted to observe her interacting with other patients or staff. I never go to see her, her door was closed. She was still attractive for mid thirties & I was the only coherent patient there for a couple days.
TC again. While I'm flurrying here I want to point out that I've known I had osteoarthritis of the knees fur some time, but all joints should've been checked out, including the back -- which felt good even though I was showing signs of peripheral neuropathy, knee buckling, hand patsthesia & ulner neuropathy . A physician should have requested an MRI, but they were all apathetic about my chronic fatigue. (A pain doctor who successfully treated my inguinal neuralgia with all block, did tell me she saw a pattern with all chronic fatigue/fibromyalgia cases: degenerative spinal disease. I didn't believe her, but this was 1999 & I had been suffering since 1992.
Why is it that people aren't educated about osteoarthritis, & told once the x-rays show arthritis & meniscus wear, that the cartilage is so brittle that running across the street can tear the meniscus, & ultimately lead to joint replacement?
Ditto for the discs. Once osteoarthritis sets in, explosive arm activities such as pounding in a heavy bag, or violently swinging a mattock to break up the hard ground for a utility trench, can get iate the discs that otherwise might have held up through the years. It's too late
I still haven't had my blood panel to test for the Tylenol overdose, liver damage (LabCorp screwed up & did something completely different, as my PCP showed me the original requisition that was a blood panel) ) & I recently had been in a powerful fungal med (itraconazole) that can cause liver damage, & I had to discontinue the itraconazole because of extremity neuropathy & congestive heart failure side effects.
I've decided not to bother with her detailed & extended blood work because the one damage is permanent, it trumps all my medical problems, & will be a death sentence ultimately..
Again, I told this to her, & told her that she was careless & thoughtless with her words in saying the MRI I educates I shouldn't be having suchvextreme symptoms.
The orthopedists warned me of immanent meniscus wear that might lead to substantial arthritic . That's playing out, & I blasted her fur being so trivial & unprofessional & irresponsibke with her words. Obviously there IS a reason fur the extreme knee symptoms.
One last comment on the swimming & locker room stuff. In 6th grade the group showers was initially disconcerting but we all quickly got used to it as it was just us boys that were all the same age. Very early on the gym teacher came into the locker room to make sure everyone showered, but once we were all in the swing of things, we had our privacy which continued right through 12th grade. We weren't on display for the adults/authority figures.
The college orientation swim test was different given the long line we had to wait in which didn't seem appropriate and the fact that as we each came up to the edge of the pool one at a time for our test, there were all of the gym teachers/staff (I forget how many were there) fully clothed watching us, and then again as we each got out of the pool after our test and had to walk back to the locker room by ourselves. There is a creepiness factor being in a mixed setting, us freshmen boys all naked and the adults all clothed, even if they were all males. Very different than the public school gang showers 6th through 12th. The subsequent swim classes were better in that we didn't hang around outside the pool and it was only two instructors, though they were fully clothed, and when done we went back to the locker room as a group rather than singly which feels different. It didn't feel like being in display.
In healthcare settings, beyond the extent of needless exposure and the fact that the staff is almost always female, a piece of the issue is again the imbalance of being exposed to people who are fully clothed staff. I realize that can't be helped but what they can help with is minimizing the needless exposure and addressing the gender issue when that is an option.
Oops, that last post was me again. Biker
Biker it's an interesting scenario to imagine what would happen if you, or any of your peers refused to swim naked for the orientation. Telling your teachers NO TEASON not to wear your swim trunks.
Similarly, what might e happened if a Tale or Harvard student said NO to a posture photo!
Push back, even if it escalates to violence is sometimes the only way to effect change. I strongly advicate it
TC
Dr B,
I have found that the ultimate problem with talk forums is that the moderators control the discussions by omitting anything they disagree with or find in bad taste.
I went on a rant about sanctioned, compliance coverups ups & acceptance of institutionalized sexual assaults in teaching hospitals, juvenile detention facilities, human sex trafficing, & ccimomuance of child rape in catholucusm, & rape as weapons of war.
You failed to publish ur. Why?
Participation is diminishing & I will extricate myself if censored. Explain it!
tC
At the border, there have been documented cases of border patrol, random my son making out innocent people not smuggling drugs, taking them to the hospital for full cavity peibes (vaginal & anal) enemas, & forced to urinate & defecate in full view of police, border patrol, hisputal staff, & even other patients with open doors.
This proves to be beyond a reasonable doubt what medical people are really made of. Their true coliors
TC posted that last one about boefter patrol & per eryed hosputals
In response to TC's comment about refusing to do the swim test in the nude, back then we were raised to do as we were told by authority figures....teachers, police, priests/nuns, doctors/nurses, and as kids, adults in general. Refusal to do the swim test as instructed was simple not an option. College administrations would not have tolerated it.
TC to Biker
I wasn't talking about refusing the swim test, but doing the test with a bathing suit, but I get your point.
I've read articles about the posture photos, in which readers mused that refusal to "play the game" could limit careers. That said, of a young Yale lawyer applied to a law firm, would the firm know they refused the pisyire photo?
Also, please don't consider this "contentious". But frankly I can't personally understand people being cool with same gender gang showers. I went along with it, played football where it was par for the course, but was never cool with it, & later repudiated it 100%>
I don't fully understand the prevailing logic among males in this group to strive for same gender surgical teams. From my perspective, I would want minimal, but competent team members.
By minimal, I mean there are too many present. Ant passive member just spectating should not be allowed
At my knee scope 003/24 there were too many people present, including two nurses just watching. Good think I was clothed throughout it.
For surgeries, I also strongly urge that every step should be taken to avoid unecessary underwear removal, & avoid arbitrary catheterization. Once those matters are onserved, who cares about gender.?
I also don't understand things such as societies norms regarding male urinals. Turning a very singular activity that required nobody else's involvement, into a communal activity. Unacceptable.
I do understand Misty Robert's assertion that male endocrinologists & gynecologists getting aroused, & lying about it after the fact. So if I were a female id gravitate towards other females.
Same gender providers still bring out the homophobe in me.
Ironically, I am happily married bing in an estate where my nearest neighbors are about a quarter of a mine away. I've been naked all summer even when stepping outside. Im sure at a distance I can be seen by those like oking hard. But in this context I don't care. It brings out the rascal in ne.
TC
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